So, I'm not currently playing any mortal, but I can still be involved in the game, right?! Anyway. This post is regarding people ranting about ganging, tactics to avoid being ganged, and general suggestions.

People constantly complain about ganging. My response? "Deal with it." If you get ganged, generally it is your fault. However, there are some situations where you can't avoid a ganging, i.e. a bunch of people hidden beyond your perception jump out and attack you, or you get summoned right-quick by a group that popped up out of nowhere in your area, raids, or whatever.

Is this WRONG? The answer is No.

Let's take Empire for example. "Oh, all those Imperials do is gang, those bastards, *various expletives*" Um. Have you noticed that they are an EMPIRE, bent on World SUBJUGATION? Do you REALLY think it makes sense, or is even reasonable, for them NOT to gang?

Back in the old days, do you think the Roman Legions turned to each other and said... "Oh wait, we 5,000 can't raid that village, that's sooooooo unfair. Okay, you 300 go, maybe some of you will get hurt, that otherwise wouldn't if we ALL went, but hey, it's more fair, ya know?"

See how ridiculous that sounds?

We all know that ganging is a very possible thing, and being well aware of that, we choose to play Carrion Fields. We all also know of the tremendous RP atmosphere, player interaction, and all the other good stuff, and being well aware of THAT, we choose to play Carrion Fields.

And onto the productive part of this post, now. How does one avoid being ganged? Well here is some actually useful information, I hope.

If you're getting ganged constantly, you're doing something wrong. Swallow your pride and admit it. That's the first step. I'd then suggest you look over your logs, see what you did wrong, or at least what could have been done to avoid it. Did you type "where" enough? Or even "who pk" for that matter? Are you able to see invisible/hidden/camo/whatever? Were you trying to be a hero and fight a 1v3 battle, "standing up for what you believe in" and instead got your ass handed to you? Were you just travelling along and got jumped? See: "Typing WHE" above.

Like I said up above, sometimes you just can't avoid it... but most of the time you can. The most important part is to admit that to yourself and move on. Yes, getting ganged sucks, especially if it's just a random squad of people going around, with no RP behind it, killing anyone who isn't in their own group. Use this as an opportunity to enhance your character. It's not all about gear. So what, you died, you lost 1/3 con. How about writing some sort of poem or story to ALL regarding your demise, if you're a Bard? Or, finding a Bard to do that for you? Beware of the whoever, you could say. Gather some people for your cause. Use it to enhance your roleplay. Or, you could just come to the OOC forums and complain that you got ganged.

"But Mr. Zepachu, what do I do if typing WHE WHE WHE WHE constantly still doesn't work, and I still get ganged?!"

Try playing a different race and/or class. You may just not be "into" Carrion Fields yet. Try playing an assassin, as they can see both hidden and invisible, or a Svirfnebli Thief, or a Duergar Anti-Paladin, or... If perception is your problem, then go for one of the combos that will allow you to see hidden/invis. That will save you a lot of headache, if, of course, it is that they are jumping you because you simply cannot perceive them. However, if it is because you are not taking WHE enough, or you get whacked in a fight, then that is something that is your fault.

I've had many successful DROW characters, and they are one of the easier races to kill. One way to play a successful character is knowing when to run, and actually being able to do it. Find some hiding spots. Running from the eastern road to Galadon and spamming west into the Weald thinking your hunters won't find you, really just won't work. Find hiding spots.

Contrary to popular belief, you CAN avoid fighting in CF, if you really want to. Maybe try NOT joining cabals... that adds a whole complicated political war-thingie to your life. Design your RP to make that possible. I, personally, would like to see more rewards for completing quests, and good RP, aside from the miniscule amount of experience given for these things. You really can't get anywhere with just quests... well, not unless you know of a few choice ones, and many of them, to boot.

The only FEASIBLE way really is to go out adventuring, which restricts, though also allows, many RP aspects. Killing mobs will always be the most effective way to level, but you can still be 'non-violent' and reach Hero, if you want.

Well, if this makes any sense at all, I hope it was useful. I guess that's all for now.

Zepatired

I agree that almost invariably if you get ganged it was due to a lack of awareness.

Even playing a non-detecting class I'll know what rangers are around most of the time, which thieves and assassins, which arcanes. I'll know where to be if gaunting conjies are around, or air shifters.

Know when to fly, when to carry a wand of return instead of a potion, when to reduce etc, and most gangs will waste a lot of time hunting you down and give up for easier targets.

Combine that with potions of teleport and knowing when to fight and run, and gangs do really only catch the unwary unless roleplay has put them into a position when they have to face the gang.

I'm not a fan of ganging, but for me it comes down to respect. I respect someone able to kill alone. Once I know they are able to kill someone competant alone I don't care if they gang. If I know they can't kill someone competant without a gang, they suck at pk. Doesn't mean they suck at the game, but they still suck at pk. (Some exception being made for healers and arcanes, say.) No one should really die to a gang. 90% of the time when I have it was my own fault. In line with this, 100% of the people I have killed (on my own) who complained about it died through a mistake on their part. Never use things like injury as an excuse. Keep yourself strong enough to fight or accept the risk of dying fast.

>Let's take Empire for example. "Oh, all those Imperials do is
>gang, those bastards, *various expletives*" Um. Have you
>noticed that they are an EMPIRE, bent on World SUBJUGATION?
>Do you REALLY think it makes sense, or is even reasonable, for
>them NOT to gang?
>
>Back in the old days, do you think the Roman Legions turned to
>each other and said... "Oh wait, we 5,000 can't raid that
>village, that's sooooooo unfair. Okay, you 300 go, maybe some
>of you will get hurt, that otherwise wouldn't if we ALL went,
>but hey, it's more fair, ya know?"
>
>See how ridiculous that sounds?

It's not a matter of realism, it's a matter of where do you draw the line for the sake of the funstick (the fact that it is a game).

Anyone can come up with any number of reason why they want to take their group of six and jump the poor unsuspecting felar axe sword that is regearing. Not only can they come up with their own, but they have many outs already within the limits of the game to refer back to. "I am a maran, and I kill evil all the time.", "I am an imperial, and I kill every non-imperial non-ally all the time."..etc..etc..

I am assuming that this was spawned from the post below, and if it wasn't I apologize. This is a game, and should be treated as such. Yes having a realistic game makes it much more interesting, blah blah. At some point it really brings the game to a crashing halt for many people. Mainly when assholes are doing their thing.

Instead of coming up with reason why its alright for so and so to gangrape the gnome thief into oblivion, I would be interested to see reasons why a character wouldn't kill him multiple times in a row.

Gabe

Good point Gabe. I also think it is quite important for someone to explain WHY they have killed someone else. Nothing annoys me more than an enemy that won't interact with you. Sometimes it is within their role, but other times it's just poor RP. When I played Zekasiq recently, I respected most Maran OOC, even though I despised them IC... even on rare occasion respecting them IN character, as well. I was a drow healer. They actually took the time to speak with me, before, during, and after fights. They tried to have me redeem myself, or at times instigate, or be instigated for, a short while of insult slinging.

I understood that Siogriend hated evils, and why. I didn't know exactly why Jhard did. "Being a warlock" isn't enough, for me. Neither is "Being a Maran"... Siorgriend showed why he hated evils in more ways than just attacking and killing them, like Jhard. I apologize if this singling out upsets anyone, but these are the two names that came to my head that illustrated my point.

I agree that people being multikilled and whatnot does bring the game to a crashing halt for some... but for others it may be the highlight of their day. Maybe killing that imperial felar warrior 5 times in a day and having him delete isn't only a bad thing. Maybe that dealt a blow to the Empire, and the Maran that drove the felar away can feel proud in their accomplishment.

It is all a matter of perspective.

Let me first say that for the most part I agree with what you wrote. At least the "spirit" of it. In a few places, though, I think you're too black-and-white about things.

>People constantly complain about ganging. My response? "Deal
>with it." If you get ganged, generally it is your fault.

Here's the first point I'd take issue with. "If you're constantly getting ganged, you must be doing something wrong." Will address below.

>However, there are some situations where you can't avoid a
>ganging, i.e. a bunch of people hidden beyond your perception
>jump out and attack you, or you get summoned right-quick by a
>group that popped up out of nowhere in your area, raids, or
>whatever.

i.e. three things that keep me awake at night.

>Back in the old days, do you think the Roman Legions turned to
>each other and said... "Oh wait, we 5,000 can't raid that
>village, that's sooooooo unfair. Okay, you 300 go, maybe some
>of you will get hurt, that otherwise wouldn't if we ALL went,
>but hey, it's more fair, ya know?"

It really pains me to do it but I'm going to quote TLB #1. It might be more realistic if the game had a defecate command. Would that make it more fun or interesting? Not really. The point being that realism *alone* isn't a good enough reason for something to be in the game. Now, there may well be reasons *other* than realism for why excessive ganging is a good thing...but that's a different argument.

>We all know that ganging is a very possible thing, and being
>well aware of that, we choose to play Carrion Fields. We all
>also know of the tremendous RP atmosphere, player interaction,
>and all the other good stuff, and being well aware of THAT, we
>choose to play Carrion Fields.

I know cheating is a very possible thing, and being aware of that, I still choose to play Carrion Fields. That doesn't make cheating an acceptable part of the game. Note: I'm not saying ganging is comparable to cheating. The argument could be made, though, that they're similar in that they both detract from the enjoyability of the game.

>If you're getting ganged constantly, you're doing something
>wrong. Swallow your pride and admit it. That's the first
>step. I'd then suggest you look over your logs, see what you
>did wrong, or at least what could have been done to avoid it.

Looking over logs is always educational. But I'm not convinced that getting ganged alot is always the gang-ee's fault. To take a page from history, consider the sylvan gang that chased Valguarnera all over Thera before eventually killing him. Old-school transmuter w/ air focus, shaman, ranger, two invokers. Air form to scout, shaman to summon, ranger to snare, invokers to spam pebble. Now, if all Valguarnera wanted to do is avoid dying, yeah, he could probably have accomplished that by just hiding somewhere and twiddling his thumbs. With that group after him, though, doing anything remotely productive or interesting suddenly becomes *extremely* risky.

Now, imagine he still has some ranking to do and that the gang immediately goes for him again as soon as he unghosts. (That part didn't happen, but judging by peoples' complaints it does nowdays.) How could he avoid being ganged? Quit or hide. Nobody's a fan of characters quitting when the odds are against them, and hiding's just boring.

>Did you type "where" enough? Or even "who pk" for that
>matter? Are you able to see invisible/hidden/camo/whatever?
>Were you trying to be a hero and fight a 1v3 battle, "standing
>up for what you believe in" and instead got your ass handed to
>you? Were you just travelling along and got jumped? See:
>"Typing WHE" above.

All good advice, but it won't always save you. You say as much later on, but I think this fact sort of invalidates the statement that people who are ganged alot are doing something wrong. Unless that "something wrong" is "not quitting out".

>Or, you could just come to the OOC forums and complain that you
>got ganged.

I could be wrong, but I think the complainers aren't so much concerned with "normal" ganging. By that I mean ganging that is RP-motivated, doesn't involve multi-killing, and isn't the *only* way those characters are ever involved in PK. From the complainers' point of view, they see a horde of good-aligned heros that all group up and go multi-kill any evil that ranks in their range, each member of the gang rarely ever fighting when not part of a large group. Surely you can see how that might get frustrating.

>Try playing a different race and/or class. You may just not
>be "into" Carrion Fields yet. Try playing an assassin, as
>they can see both hidden and invisible, or a Svirfnebli Thief,
>or a Duergar Anti-Paladin, or... If perception is your
>problem, then go for one of the combos that will allow you to
>see hidden/invis.

Good advice. It limits the combos you can play, but still good advice. This will fly in the face of role-play, but here's some more advice- once you pick a class, consider choosing your alignment and cabal to minimize the potential enemies that can make your life miserable. Maybe you choose assassin to get detect hiden and detect invis for free. Who will cause you the most problems? Thieves, for one, but there's not alot you can do about that short of an IC arrangement with the Thieves' Guild. Other than thieves, duergar and summoners can both make your life miserable. How can you best nullify the duergar threat? Join Empire. This may piss off the village, but possibly not if you play your cards right. And besides, villagers aren't likely to be in a gang with a summoner, so you're more likely to see them coming and be able to take evasive action.

Joining Empire would also get the more skilled thieves off your back, considering that's where they're most likely to end up. Navarro anyone? One downside- being an Imperial gets Sylvan on your back if you're not already a defiler. As an alternative, you could play a non-drow and remain uncaballed, then try to arrange some IC alliance to get Empire off your back. Personally I'd rather have the Warders after me, though snaring rangers w/ big gangs to back them up is pretty scary.

I appreciate the rebuttal. Yeah, I was back and forth from other things when I posted that just some time ago and got slightly distracted, so didn't thoroughly explain at least a few things that I wanted to. Here goes:

"It really pains me to do it but I'm going to quote TLB #1. It might be more realistic if the game had a defecate command. Would that make it more fun or interesting? Not really. The point being that realism *alone* isn't a good enough reason for something to be in the game. Now, there may well be reasons *other* than realism for why excessive ganging is a good thing...but that's a different argument."

I agree. I believe that is why PK ranges exist. There are a lot of battles fought between realism, funism and playability...ism. The mere fact that you can go for eternity without sleeping if you're not fighting and just making sure you eat/drink is something that was in the stock-code and never changed because, although more realistic, it would just be stupid.

"Looking over logs is always educational. But I'm not convinced that getting ganged alot is always the gang-ee's fault. To take a page from history, consider the sylvan gang that chased Valguarnera all over Thera before eventually killing him. Old-school transmuter w/ air focus, shaman, ranger, two invokers. Air form to scout, shaman to summon, ranger to snare, invokers to spam pebble. Now, if all Valguarnera wanted to do is avoid dying, yeah, he could probably have accomplished that by just hiding somewhere and twiddling his thumbs. With that group after him, though, doing anything remotely productive or interesting suddenly becomes *extremely* risky."

Agree with you 100% there, though I did say that there are some situations where there is absolutely NOTHING you can do to avoid being ganged. Sometimes it is just a fact of life... but there are occasions where people will whine about being ganged when it was under their control to not be. That's what I was attempting to address.

"Now, imagine he still has some ranking to do and that the gang immediately goes for him again as soon as he unghosts. (That part didn't happen, but judging by peoples' complaints it does nowdays.) How could he avoid being ganged? Quit or hide. Nobody's a fan of characters quitting when the odds are against them, and hiding's just boring."

There really isn't much that can be done. Once you die, you're that much more vulnerable. An experienced player will be able to avoid further PK, but let's face it... If you were killing fully geared, how will you survive half-naked? You won't, unless the odds quickly tip to your favor. I believe this is something that has been all too often neglected by the Immortals. They feel that the ghosting, get all corpsing, PKing aspect is 'fine' the way it is.

Our esteemed Trogdor fanatic Zulghinlour recently said something about 'get all corpse' not being a problem... that he assumes everything is gone, and if it hits him the right way, he'll take a few days off from his mortal character, and he suggests that "regular" players roll up something else to play for a time to change it up a bit. Good advice, but what about those that only play one mortal at a time? A physical limitation imposed on the player, by the player, for whatever reason. I still think that get all corpse is horribly flawed, but I understand his (Zulg) and the ImmStaff's position on it all.

Gabe mentioned an idea that he heard from RiftShadow. Of course it's not an original idea, but it is still a good one. Actually making the room have physical dimensions and causing a group's formation, or person's placement in the room, to have an effect on how many could fight one another, and so forth. I think this is a good idea, and theoretically seems fair and good, but in practice I don't think it would work out. Here's a suggestion, however:

***** LIGHTBULB
To make it that the room's size, everyone in its race, and whatever, would actually cause combat to go differently, would require the combat system to be rewritten. This idea seems a more simplistic, fair and practical. What about allowing "interference" to take its toll. On CF, everything hits in rounds. One round lag this, two round lag that. People don't have their own set timers pushed into the idler that causes them to hit on staggered schedules. No, we all hit each round, or at least attempt to. Even special things like owaza and such, hit on the round... with prep time. So, the concept of 'intereference' would discourage ganging, and otherwise unfair combat, by doing this:

Go with me on this. Let's say we have an Assassin, whom just gets jumped by two Warriors and a Necromancer. The Necromancer summons him, the Warriors bash, and while the assassin is lagged the Necro is maledicting. Not doing much damage, except for the actual bash keeping the assassin in the room, the warriors wait for the Necro to do its thing. So, while the assassin is lagged, the Necro blinds, diseases him, etc. Now the warriors figure there's no real need to keep him in the room by bashing and it is time to unleash their offensive power. They're both sword specs.

So they decide to flurry, flurry, flurry, for whatever reason. I am not sure I ever fought two sword specs at one time, and I am even less sure that I ever saw two sword specs use flurry and hit on the same exact round. But, like I said, go with me on this.

So they flurry, flurry, flurry. I have no seen the code, but I am sure that it is phenomenally easier to check who's in the room, the target, what the others are going to do on the round, and to cause some interference. So if they both were to flurry on the same round, they might wind up clashing swords. Perhaps they wouldn't cause one another any physical harm, but they may at the very least get in each other's way.

See where I'm going with this? It's a lot different, and more practical I feel, than Gabe's above-mentioned idea (Though it's still a good one).

This can be applied to many, many things. Just about every "special" attack that you have to type something in to have an effect... This would ignore NORMAL round attacks. So if someone tried to double thrust while you were flurrying, it might come into play... or if someone is trying to attempt an owaza the same round. Basically it still seems like it would be a bitch to code, but maybe this in some way will give an idea to the Staff, that they may modify and decide on things. *shrug*

(In the end, by the way, the assassin gets away, binds his wounds thereby curing his blindness, hides, stalks, and assassinates at least one of them. )

***** /LIGHTBULB

"I could be wrong, but I think the complainers aren't so much concerned with "normal" ganging. By that I mean ganging that is RP-motivated, doesn't involve multi-killing, and isn't the *only* way those characters are ever involved in PK. From the complainers' point of view, they see a horde of good-aligned heros that all group up and go multi-kill any evil that ranks in their range, each member of the gang rarely ever fighting when not part of a large group. Surely you can see how that might get frustrating."

Well, I believe you said in a previous post that you refer to 'Team Good' because generally when you're of Good alignment you're part of 'Team Good' by default... but it isn't true necessarily with Evil. At any rate, yes I understand how it is frustrating.

CF, in and of itself, has a whole bunch of double standards, created and supported by the people that play it. Goodies complain that all Evils/Empire/Whatever do is go around and kill Goodies, in huge gangs. Evils complain that all the Marans do is go around and kill ANY Evil, or that Team Good only hunts in packs.

Who's wrong? Nobody. Who's right? Nobody. The simple fact is, Carrion Fields is a game. Carrion Fields is a very strategic game, at that. I don't see anything wrong with an Evil being killed by 5 Goodies, or a Good being killed by 5 Evils... or an Evil being killed by 5 Evils, for that matter. Repeatedly. I don't see anything wrong with it because that is, quite simply, the name of the game. If you want to keep killing someone that is naked... go for it. The CF code allows this, and in all of the years I have played, it has never been a HUGE problem. People are not CONSTANTLY multikilled... and if they are then they should know better.

You're right, I am a little black and white with certain things, but I think certain things are quite honestly just that simple. If you want to involve yourself in CF, expect to die. If you want to play a big bad evil guy, then expect that Floofi's henchmen are going to hunt you down like the pig you are, repeatedly killing you, despite your gear. If they didn't take advantage of your half-dressed status, they'd be stupid. No mercy. I think Evils show Goodies the same consideration.