Now that Outlanders has been around for a good while and the imms have had the chance to see a few unsuccessful thieves, has there been any consideration in giving back thieves and assassins a limited hide ability? With hide, thieves could hide in places like the plains north of Galadon, while assassins could hide in more wild places. When either class joins Outlanders, they lose the ability completely.

Aside from not making sense that they lose their ability to hide in wild/semi-wild places, whenever their item is gone, they completely lose their ability to conceal themselves, which is the trademark of any stealth class. If someone plays an evil thief, you have few to no combat skills to speak of, the Tribunal, Orc clan, Empire, and Fortress after you, and absolutely no way of concealing yourself or being in any spot that's really safe.

With limited hiding, at least they could go somewhere and hide in the shadow of trees and whatnot. This would provide a little bit more incentive to join a cabal that's really struggling as it is with membership. Also, there are a few thief skills that, to my knowledge, haven't been tweaked and require being hidden for them to work, although they aren't tied to being any kind of civilized skills.

This is directed mostly towards imms, but comments from the playerbase are more than welcome.

I think that Outlander thieves/assassins are on the weak side, and it probably wouldn't break anything if they saw hide or some form of hide back.

However, I also think that there shouldn't be a ton of Outlander thieves/assassins running around and it's okay if it's a somewhat disadvantaged combo.

I have no plans to adjust this specifically in the near future, but I will say that thieves in general are on a short list for me to examine in some depth. To try to explain my mad vision there would surely test the limit of everyone's sanity.

How about give Outlanders who sneak the ability to essentially "creep" while chameleoned. I realize this would be a significant advantage, but it would mantain some of the weakenss inherent in outlander thieves/assassins (as in without their item they still can't hide at all) while making them seriously scary with their item (as in they might be anywhere, and you aren't going to see them by spamming where, cause they're sneaky). Actually I would make it dependant upon some sort of chameleon/can windwalk combo but I'll let you all figure it out (especially since I'm 100% sure this idea will be ignored or flamed as stupid).

No I haven't overlooked the fact that any class (potentially) has access to sneak, or that it would be a boost to outlander dark-elves and elves.

Outlander thieves and assassins that can creep become uber rangers.

They become IMHO more akin to their city dwelling counterparts, what with the being able to sneak up on people, it's just that their chose environment is now different. The think about camo+creep that makes it so scary is the damage on ambush. Backstab, while certainly dangerous, isn't exactly the bread and butter of a thief's repitoire, if you know what I mean.

>>However, I also think that there shouldn't be a ton of Outlander thieves/assassins running around and it's okay if it's a somewhat disadvantaged combo.<<

I think its safe to say that this would never happen anyway. Outlanders seem to be getting rarer and rarer, and I'm just trying to look out for the cabal I love to play (albeit, I haven't played an Outlander in a couple of months). Thieves are all about being able to steal things and get coins for their trouble. Assassins play just to assassinate things. Both abilities really are voided when joining Outlander, and they lose hide on top of that.

The couple of thieves I did play in Outlander, I noticed some bugs that I ended up reporting but never saw on the bug-fix. Should I resend these to you, or is it rest-assured that they've been received and fixed?

TO PLAYERBASE: What are some of the reasons you wouldn't be willing to play a thief in Outlander, besides the hide issue?

TO PLAYERBASE: What are some of the reasons you wouldn't be willing to play a thief in Outlander, besides the hide issue?

Outlander is wilderness cabal and thief is city class. Outlander thief is what? A little runt who steals the scraps of the meal from the bigger predators. Cunning trapper could work too, but I think a ranger with snare pulls that role better in wilderness style. I just can't think of a good thief role for Outlander that would sound convincing, explaining why thief is the best class for the character of that mindset.

Personally, I have zero appeal for playing an Outlander thief. The class is primarily designed for cities and does poorly in wilderness. I don't see why a thief would want to be an Outlander. So, why thief?

+ Outlander thief might work on some level on the offensive side, making blackjack steal raids to cities. With detect hidden, thief has some scouting ability.

- Name a wilderness trainer where you can train thief paths? I don't know one. How is practicing in cities consistent with Outlander role?

- I don't see why my character should be of thief class and end up as Outlander. Doesn't sound very convincing.

- Most other classes would do better in Outlander in my opinion with a better roleplay concept than thieves.

>+ Outlander thief might work on some level on the offensive
>side, making blackjack steal raids to cities. With detect
>hidden, thief has some scouting ability.

Trappers have the ability to knock out entire groups of people, which is great against Tribunal. Poisoners, binders, thugs all have their uses in raid scenarios. A pickpocket thief is really the only thief that has a great advantage in being a solo player, and hide is essential for them. All the other paths are great as scouts, and then backup. I once read something one of the Imms posted about envisioning poisoner thieves in Outlander would be scary.

>- Name a wilderness trainer where you can train thief paths? I
>don't know one. How is practicing in cities consistent with
>Outlander role?

This argument could be made for bards as well, but bards are allowed and encouraged to join Outlander. It can be gotten around since some of the nature-oriented towns (i.e. Darsylon, Eryn Galen) and the outlying settlements have guilds you can practice in. This could fit in consistently with the rogue who sneaks into town to take care of some business and then sneaking back out. I think there is even one thieves guild not located in any city at all. I forget what they teach though.

>- I don't see why my character should be of thief class and
>end up as Outlander. Doesn't sound very convincing.

"The Outlanders of Thar-Eris are a motley crew of wildmen, brigands, barbarians, and freedom fighters who seek to spell the end of the pox civilization has brought upon the world. Those who heed the call of Thar-Eris walk many paths, from the cunning outlaw to the wily trickster to the contemplative naturalist."

Brigand is another word for a highway robber. Cunning outlaw, wily trickster, either sounds like it could be a description for thieves. I think of all the classes that are able to join Outlanders, thieves make the most sense. Losing their ability to hide within cities also makes sense, but not losing their ability to hide altogether. Since, even if they didn't lose the ability to hide, lawmen could see them anyway, I don't think there's a true imbalance to let them keep hide. Plus, the Empire is filled with Shadows and duergars to see thieves.

What doesn't make sense to me is an orderly thief. Thieves are known for stealing, plain and simple, and taking what isn't yours from someone seems like it would be the precursor for chaos.

>- Most other classes would do better in Outlander in my
>opinion with a better roleplay concept than thieves.

There are plenty of great role ideas for a thief in Outlander. One of the greatest thief tales is about an Outlanderish guy. Robin Hood. Though, his end goals weren't the same as most Outlanders, he still fought against the tyrannical order. Anyone with a decent roleplay idea could come up with something to join the cabal, whether you're a strange redeemed nature-loving dwarf, or a necromancer who's given up their powers, or a forest brigand hiding in the forest.

Whilst an outlander thief might be balanced as an individual character, it is not balanced when combined with other outlander traditional classes.

Part of what makes outlander work is that they lack the talents of a thief.

You have one thief, and you are then able to gank people down one by one whilst surrounding them with deadfalls and possibly briars. The combination because a little too potent, imho.

Than a muter/shaman/bard/ect? Out of those three, the thief is the last one I'm afraid of.

Outlanders seem to be getting rarer and rarer

The cabal has its usual number of members right now.

As for Outlander thieves, for a while we toyed with the idea of just barring the class, as it was not deemed to be a great fit. We decided some thief roles could work, but we wanted the numbers limited. It's fully intentional that the loss of Hide (among other skills) is a significant drawback.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com