Mon Dec 3 17:27:25 2018

At 4 o'clock AM, Day of the Bull, 1st of the Month of the Dark Shades
on the Theran calendar Ikno perished, never to return.

If your take on "chaos" makes you come across as a schizophrenic meth-head, you're doing it wrong.

Entropy is for the sane. It isn't a collective of nutball cartoons. Rather, it's a coincidence of people who believe in freedom and magic, and feel Chaos is the best way to achieve their goals. It's an intellectual movement.

Ikno was trying to do stuff, and I was rooting for him, but in my opinion it just didn't quite work. That has been the norm though in this cabal.

There have been a couple of Entropists who have really gotten it and done an amazing job. But for the most part, this isn't what anyone hoped it would be. Maybe it is just not something that works in practice.

Like, whenever I would try to think of one in my head it always cames out exactly like what you say you don't want. Just a nonsense spewing idiot who's probably using his power more for pk than for cool chaos stuff. And I don't want to be another one of those.

I can think of roles and ideas for just about every other cabal. (Scarab could be a little harder because most scarabites just turn out to be the same character. I.E. Kill everything in sight and tell them to "See the truth" or some non-sense.) But Entropy really eludes me. It's a challenge that I think would take up way more of my time than I am willing to give.

I like playing this game, but I have so much going on in my life, I just can't devote that much time to playing that kind of character. The kind of character that would really do that cabal justice. Anyways, keep your head up. At least you tried something cool. This game could do with more cool ideas such as Entropy.

Mad Scientist
Ornery Philosopher
Universal Devil's Advocate
Ironically Bureaucratic Diplomancer
Arcane Transhumanist
Nihilist (pick your flavour)
Absurdist
<Noun> who eschews standard practices or ethics in the pursuit of <topic/goal>

Have fun creating your own ideas of right and wrong (religion can help) and apply them liberally in your character's life. Things can be quirky and unique when filtered through the lens of an altered morality or perspective.

Try to avoid insanity. Sure, a casual observer might consider your actions nonsensical or illogical, but that is because they do not grasp the underlying logic or pattern which dictates your thinking. You are each operating on different assumptions.

E.G: "Truth is subjective. People who project or enforce their truth upon others engage in intellectual slavery." Befriend skeptics, condemn ideologues. Preaching is evil. Sowing widespread doubt is the pinnacle of good deeds.

These are all great ideas.

I think people overthink Entropy and make it so much more complicated than it is, to the point that I almost have to explain what it isn't.

If anyone reading this rolls something for Entropy, keep in mind that being chaotic or being in Entropy is actually not very different from any other character. You must:

-Have an interesting personality.
-Have a goal that actually makes sense.
-I repeat: HAVE A GOAL THAT MAKES SENSE! (This is where the vast majority fail)

So, let's take the example of a mad scientist.

A mad scientist isn't going to be all like, "BING BONG! I AM GOING TO RESEARCH HOW TO TURN MY HEAD INTO A MUSHROOM AND MY FEET INTO KITTIES!"

Dr. Frankenstein, the archetypal mad scientist, didn't want to do something inane. He wanted to create life from death - which is a completely understandable goal that is only insane in its vanity, its ambition, and its taboo-ness.

So here's where an Entropy character is different:
You always do what your character WANTS to do.

Not what the character is supposed to do or sworn to do or is asked to do or even agrees to do. This will keep everyone else guessing about what you'll do next. Go ahead: Make all kinds of promises or agreements and break them whenever you feel like it. Raid or defend whoever or whatever you want, so long as it feels right for you at that moment. There is no difference in your eyes between the worth of the Emperor and that of a peasant child.

You don't have to be blind to the fact that everyone else reveres cabal leaders over others; in fact, you can play with that. Go bow before Bloodoaths and order around the Emperor (not because you're crazy, but to prove a point).

The Magic part is essentially that you don't respect any restrictions imposed upon magical power or study (except for enslavement). Nexus liked a thin Veil. Entropy is cool with wrecking the Veil and causing catastrophe, because magic oughta do what magic wants to do.

I thought Ikno did an amazing job in part, and an awful job in part. He had a really great role (won a RC, even!) and started doing some interesting notes (I REALLY liked the intent of the notes; the execution was another matter entirely). The problem was that he went a little too overboard on the wild eccentricity and didn't have enough of a personal goal to keep the character grounded.

I hope this helps.

oops. I started to write my post below this one before I started making minions. Bunch of failings here on my end sry x.x this does answer a bit.

For other cabal, beyond a shared value, I can define a concrete (if distant!) goal they are working towards. Seems like entropy stops at shared value - very interesting but not as fun in terms of actual gameplay! Can you speak to what this cabal’s “victory condition” is?

nt

I don't think Entropy has a unique identity right now, and I think you demonstrated that by saying it's easier to define what Entropy isn't, than what it is. If the Immortals running the cabal can't define what the cabal is about in simple terms, how can you expect a player-run character to live those ideals?

It's pretty easy to define every other cabal in very simple terms:
- Fort wants to protect good people and kill evil people.
- Empire wants to impose their rule over everyone and consolidate power for themselves.
- Outlander wants to destroy civilization.*
- Battle wants to end all mortal use of magic.
- Scarab wants people to be their true selves, without hiding behind false morality.

So, how do we finish this sentence: "Entropy wants to..."

If I'm not mistaken, they have two real goals:
1. End civilization.*
2. Ensure magic is free and unrestricted.

Two problems though:
Entropy's first priority seems to mirror that of Outlander. Why do we need a second organization that wants to destroy civilization?
Entropy's second priority is hypocritical. They want magic to be free, except they don't like binding magic. So all magic but that kind should be unrestricted? Seems like they are creating artificial barriers on the practice of magic, yet still fighting against OTHER artificial barriers.

I get that they're all about freedom, but freedom to do what you want (except things we don't like) is an ideal that's already taken by Outlander (and, arguably, by Scarab). It's just a slightly different take on what's already available.. and outside of a necromancer (who could likely find a home in Scarab), I doubt there are many Entropy-specific roles that wouldn't also work in Outlander. It's a niche cabal, except without a niche.

My recommendation would be to remove that first priority (ie, ending civilization), and double down on the whole magic thing. Make them about freely practicing and researching all forms of magic, and actively destroying all barriers to that (ie, cabals that would hunt them). That would make the cabal still interesting but with more clearly-defined goals, and also place it smack in the middle of cabalwars, rather than far on the outskirts.

>I don't think Entropy has a unique identity right now, and I
>think you demonstrated that by saying it's easier to define
>what Entropy isn't, than what it is. If the Immortals running
>the cabal can't define what the cabal is about in simple
>terms, how can you expect a player-run character to live those
>ideals?
>
>It's pretty easy to define every other cabal in very simple
>terms:



Entropy is a loose affiliation of philosophers, arcanists, and creatives who seek to explore the depths of their field of interest without being held back by convention, tradition, or societal pressures. They are unified by their belief in the ideals of personal and intellectual freedom.

The truth is you have a tremendous amount of latitude to explore this definition, so it's easier to say what they aren't, rather than what they are.




>Two problems though:
>Entropy's first priority seems to mirror that of Outlander.
>Why do we need a second organization that wants to destroy
>civilization?



Both EMPIRE and SCARAB want to wipe out goodness and embrace darkness. Why do we need a second organization that wants to make everyone evil?

Both EMPIRE and TRIBUNAL want to impose law and order across all of Thera. Why do we need a second organization that wants to wrap everything in red tape?

Entropy is set apart from Outlander because Entropists have no qualms against breaking the natural order of things and committing horrendous crimes against nature in the pursuit of their goals.

"#### rules. Do magic."


>Entropy's second priority is hypocritical. They want magic to
>be free, except they don't like binding magic. So all magic
>but that kind should be unrestricted? Seems like they are
>creating artificial barriers on the practice of magic, yet
>still fighting against OTHER artificial barriers.



Following that logic, if I hunt down Imperials because they are oppressing the freedoms of others, then I am infringing on the Imperials' freedom to enslave people.

Freedom is relative. You need to look at the big picture.

Just because we don't condone the use of binding/mind controlling magic in our cabal, doesn't mean we want to put some sort of permanent interplanar moratorium on it. That kind of magic is distasteful, and we might kill you or screw with you or teach you a lesson, but banning it is the sort of act of hubris we are not fond of.



>I get that they're all about freedom, but freedom to do what
>you want (except things we don't like) is an ideal that's
>already taken by Outlander


You could define every cabal as "Freedom to do what you want (except things we don't like)".


>My recommendation would be to remove that first priority (ie,
>ending civilization), and double down on the whole magic
>thing. Make them about freely practicing and researching all
>forms of magic, and actively destroying all barriers to that
> ie, cabals that would hunt them). That would make the cabal
>still interesting but with more clearly-defined goals, and
>also place it smack in the middle of cabalwars, rather than
>far on the outskirts.

What is stopping you from rolling an Entropist that does that?

This has been a useful discussion and I have more to say, but I'm going to post it on the Gameplay board rather than poor Ikno's Battlefields thread.

Continue here: http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=72212&mesg_id=72212&page=

Your definition of Entropy might be correct. But there's a couple of problems with it.

First, it doesn't really match what's in the Entropy helpfile. In fact, the helpfile only briefly talks about magic at all. Second, you only told me about vague activities of the cabal (which, incidentally, aren't activities you can do to a large extent in-game), and you neglected to mention the specific goals or actions of the cabal. So, what are they?

You made a couple of silly arguments about Empire, Trib and Scarab. We both know that they were meaningless, but if you really need someone to describe how those cabals are dramatically different from each other in beliefs, goals and activities, I suppose I can do that.

But in the mean time, can you tell me how and why Entropy is going to destroy civilization, and how that's different from how and why Outlander is going to destroy civilization? Because that is literally the first sentence of both of their helpfiles. The placement as the lead-in of the helpfile, and the fact that that is quite literally the only specifically stated goal tells me that is their true focus (rather than assertion that the focus is on research or intellectual freedom).

There are at least two more instances where that helpfile specifically talks about aggressively fighting against society. There are zero where it talks about passively researching magic in a lab somewhere.

You claim that Entropists don't care about rules, just that you do magic. Except they've made specific rules about what magic is allowed, and what magic isn't. So they DO care about rules when it comes to magic, that's really inarguable. And that's perfectly fine, and all.. but then you can no longer claim that their goal is purely unhindered magic. There is literally nothing in the helpfile that states that as a fact, and there IS something in the helpfile that states otherwise.


PS. We're having a discussion about the cabal, not about your own personal beliefs (I hope). I recommend that you stop saying "we". We're not IC on these forums.

It’s tough, first of all, because you are trying to rebrand a cabal that was a huge part of the beginning years of CF. A lot of people still remember or have seen logs of the nuttiness of Entropy from that time. Hell, just recently someone reposted that Star Wars parody log that contained a chariacture of that entropy dude with the shovel, and there’s something amusing about it even if it doesn’t belong in today’s CF.

I know you have told the player base this isn’t the same cabal as the original but I think it’s taking time for everyone to really get what it’s about. At least it has for me. Characters like Ikno make me think I’m definitely not the only one. What’s more is that pointing it out as you and Daphedee have done does help in reinforcing the new definition of the cabal. It might be just taking time for all the bulbs to turn on.

I personally have been intrigued by the cabal but my desire to play it kinda stems from wanting to make an entropy character that’s actually involved in PK. That’s always been my biggest knock on it. It just doesn’t seem to fill the cabal war/PK voids left by Nexus and Scion. Hell, seems like most Entropist characters are PK averse. Maybe that’s the point. I dunno.

Entropy was never supposed to be chaotic stupid though, but that's the only thing people really seem to take away from the good old days. Pico had a very specific stance on what Entropy should be and it really wasn't all the chaotic stupidness you typically see. I wish I could remember our exact conversation about it because it was pretty enlightening, but unfortunately my CF memories got wiped and don't retain as much from 20 years ago.

I was fortunate to have a Chaos discussion with Pico as a Heroimm
years ago. That dude is has an astoundingly deep understanding of
Chaos that makes my head hurt. It was amazing, and I miss Pico.

The wars of order and chaos existed historically during the second age, back when the lords of order and chaos had their creations fight over who would be the victor in their war that existed since the beginning of time. Thera was created to be their battleground as mortals came to know it, with all mortals then being their creation. Time went on, the creation of the anti magic army or manavoid depending on historical documents, great betrayal, dominance over armies of chaos till villagers were killing armies of order also. Now after the third faction taking part, comes the eventual seven day inquisition, with gods of each people falling from the skies, most of thera completely wiped out population wise with extinction being at hand. Then sounded the horn, all fighting ceased. In the aftermath knights were created from villagers and the magi, believing not all magic was bad and control needed put on them, predecessors of maran. Sylvan created, largely to protect and preserve life after the near destruction of the world as it were. I do not recall entropy being made at this time, but some time during the third age with its own story. The empire came to our shores from another continent bringing the bloodoath also later. Scions came later, the religion of the scarab came later, but each with its own established place in history.

In this though there are two that do not fit with thera as it stands today or its history. One is the outlanders. Never in history were the ancients ever in existance. We were always there just noone knew about us never worked with ancient beings of great strength that dominated as the fittest, that would have been known. The other is the current entropy cabal. Despite the issues with it bearing the exact name with a concept and ideology different than what it has today, it comes with a story and way that already existed, from a war that ended, with a god that historically left this world. The lord of order supposedly sleeps in the (insert secret place here). Armies of order can be found in thar acacia led by vakrin with his quest. There is also the consortium which is combined magics of order and chaos, but not entropic or only of chaos with its promotion. There is no place in thera with any background, no second commings, no risings of chaos, except for this place.
This place that already lost the war for all purposes.

Rahsiel you once explained that you would rather have the cabal in and work on it to get everything in order than to have the cabal in later in the game during its development. While I agree, it has been over a year and a half with characters like.. the fahrt, anti paladin and his talking violins. That the only notable character I can think of.
There are beings that are helpful to the ones researching within the tower, one a being of fire magic I think it was? Lady. Anyway about 20% of the cabal gets to see anything of this sort. So a fraction of the people that play this game, of the people that are willing to try to be in this cabal understand a small bit. But as one that has met her and has gained a cabal skill I can honestly tell you while the character existed (after being inducted not long after I ate my face that had been talking to me) I do not understand where the cabal is going. All this time later, I do not know where the cabal is going.

I can understand why they war against the village, but seeking chaos magic is not something that would cause them to be in a war against the spire, or empire with them not being a war cabal. (Empire though etc etc, fighting back is a different story). Why are they, including the elves, not fighting against the maran because that, more than the spire, would seek to hinder the progress and study of magic because they seek to control what can be learned and what is not. Why do they not war?

I dont understand your cabal. As a player I dont get it. It has not been made to fit with now. It has not been made as a thing of its own cabal, but as a shadow of a cabal for it.

As a player, what can I do with this?

That said I chuckled at "get the cabal in and work on it to get everything in order"

some of my meds mess me up

Out of curiosity, what characters would you list from literature, television or film that are good examples of a chaotic ethos (as distinct from the Entropy cabal)?

Everybody else free to chip in as well.

Either from The Animated Series, or The Dark Knight.

Thats the character I always start out with in my head, but it only gets worse, not better.

Seems like a good example to me, but I'm not great at role-playing chaotic ethos characters. One thing that comes to mind about The Joker is that he's insane. What's an example of a chaotic character that isn't mentally ill?

Again, I'm not great at this, but what about..

Merry & Pippin?

Han Solo?

Luna Lovegood?

Robin Hood
Batman himself
Padan Fain from wot
Ben affleck from The Accountant

A few that spring to mind:

Kelsier (Mistborn)

Logen Ninefingers (First Law)

Harry Dresden (Dresden Files)

Lots of Harry Potter by the end, good and evil.

Kiritsugu Emiya (Fate Zero)

Jigsaw (saw).