>Pulled a few comments from Dios to spark yet another
>discussion of assassins on this board too in hopes that
>someone upstairs keeps an open mind to it. I would add to the
>ongoing discussion that an argument against assassins being
>overpowered that I have often heard is "most assassins aren't
>deadly and don't do well at hero" to which I would respond
>that less competent players can make any powerful build
> assassin with nage waza, STSF elf, giant flurry warrior,
>duergar warrior, 7 path invoker with all masteries, etc.) look
>terrible.

For the record, I...reasonably recently (ie: no major changes
since I did one) played a (albeit rager) assassin. I repeatedly
got my ass handed to me. Same thing happened the assassin I tried
way, way before that. Admittedly, I don't tend to load up on
edges, and almost certainly didn't have any martial edges, but the
biggest problem I ran into was direct damage. Assassins just
don't have a ton of hp (and as rager no prep), and I'd just run
out of HP *real* fast.

>Anyone who can write a role, explore a little bit, and level
>to 51 can get Master of Nage Waza and Ground Fighter, and
>probably a few other edges. Master of Nage Waza is a
>ridiculous edge, for reasons that are pretty well documented.

I've been involved in some discussions in the past, and some of
the consensus was Nage Waza does *way* more than it should. If it
did like...any *one* boost it does, it'd probably be appropriate.

>Posts from Dios below:
>
> saagkri on one reason assassins feel OP - they just have an
>answer for EVERYTHING, which is in very stark contrast to
>pretty much every other hiding/ambush class such as thief,
>assassin, and situationally transmuter, orc, and Outlanders.)
>"
>in CF memory except for old assassinate (no stalking just %
>chance success) and forced-dual. Sorry if any of this isn't
>100% correct. I've played assassins before, but they need
>toning down IMHO.
>
>- They can hide better than thieves so they can pick their
>battles

Yes, but not as quickly. I had always been of the opinion their
"quick city hide" could stand to be wilderness length recovery.

>- Biggest maledicts, fastest application of maledicts

I'll give ya this.

>- Most damaging lag move which can also maledict

Does no one remember pincer anymore? Double-spin kick? But yes, the lag-rate's better, and it's probably most damaging of the 2 round lag skills. Also, one of the biggest *failings* of throw is
that you can't start a fight with it. Of course, that's where the
trip/throw someone running down the road comes in, or nerve later.

>- Can slow you pre-combat (darts) and during combat
> kansetsuwaza, which also maledicts)
>- Can break your wrist obviously (kote)

In all of these cases, yes, they can do it, and honestly I *hated*
hitting the scream kansetsuwaza, because guaranteed that's when
the other guy is peacing out.

>- Can stalk to cut-off fleeing
>- Can stalk to assassinate

>- Then trance: Haste + 50% dam redux?

False. Trance does not give haste.

>- Add to that a trance edge: +400hp? or 100% weapon mastery or
>etc.

>- Can parry with hands
>- Also, backfists

Honestly, I find the offense bonus more useful than these.
Trying to *parry* those assassin punches sorta stinks.

>- And shield block (It costs 10 thief points to get that on a
>thief)

Useful, but hardly the point anyone's griping about. Most "OP"
situations are the assassin out-damaging warrior-dude, etc. That
said, I do think the skill doesn't *greatly* fit the theme of the
class, and removing it might actually give them a *little* bit of
a paper to their generally-dominating rock. (Less defense while
they try to maledict people)

>- Third attack
>- Oh, and tiger claw (thieves earclap sucks and you have to be
>a thug to take it...and it's after third attack)

They've had tiger claw for like...15 years. They've actually had their dual wield and third attack skills moved *later* than they used to be, to even out the low levels a bit.

>- vanish (not that big of a deal, but you sure can catch
>someone on eastern with it)
>- Healing skill
>- -save v spell skill

These have all been around for like...20 years. They haven't been
out of whack before, don't think they are now.

>- 1 round lag attack (nerve. So you can go right into throw,
>etc.)

That was handy, and I personally would be down with sure, nerve is
one round lag, but you still can't *START* a fight with it. That
seems to be what everyone picks the edge for, not for more nerving.

>- Best edges in the game

I might argue that. There's some awesome orc edges. Conjurer edges. APs have some crazy edges. Hell, there's more insane druid edges than I know what to pick. The problem with assassins
is they have *ONE* edge that *probably* needs looked at, and a lot
of mid-priced edges that boost useful skills.

>- Mark (big deal if you know how to use it)
>- pick lock (really? They need this?)
>- I know I'm missing something

Again, been around for like...15-20 years.

>Assassins were coded by someone who like to play assassins. It
>would be one thing is a class could
>conceal/heal/melee/defend/get away/track but wasn't the best
>at anything. But that's not our current assassins.

Well, they are that. They have more versatility hiding, but can't
move and stand concealed in the woods, and don't get to return to
hiding as quickly afterwards. They have *one* small heal every
few hours, melee on par w/ APs, but much few weapon options.
Their "better than" skills are designed for the "I will find you,
and I will kill you" abilities. Mark, stealth approach, etc.

> laearrist on changes over the years that have led to
>assassins seeming pretty overpowered.)
>"
>1) Martial Trance
>
>Made Assassins way less squishy at hero. Now most only fight
>with it up.
>
>2) Dex changes
>
>Harder to beat in melee due to high dex and they can evade
>direct damage sometimes. Martial trance boosts this. Very hard
>to bash down tranced assassin, even if you can win the melee.
>They just don't get perma-lagged consistently
>
>3) Throw + ground control edges
>
>Throw now has 100% success rate. Ground control too? Maybe
>not, but very high. Both do more damage, and you get more
>consistent results from ground control. And free throws. And
>you can throw hand specs and other assassins.
>
>4) No class XP penalty
>
>Now your human/half-elf/half-drow assassin not only has all of
>the above working for them, but they're also a zero XP penalty
>stealth class able to easily pick on lower level characters.
>with 400 XP penalty, you have close to giant PK range. With
>zero, you are fighting giants 8 ranks below you. Now you get
>to dominate all through the ranks.
>
>5) Martial Trance edges
>
>Kind of doesn't matter which one, but the one that gives you
>100% in all weapons means you no longer have to worry about
>axes or maces or whatever, which you already worried about
>less because of dam redux (due to MT) and dex changes (which
>made those easier to dodge), but now you also parry them like
>a champ (and can wield them to make your own attacks harder to
>parry) so you are near par with sword spec level defenses and
>you have bash + savage feeding. And stealth. And the best
>maledicts. And built in healing. And cure blind. And area
>blind/poison. And knockout. And... you get the idea.
>"


I do think these are all factors which have shifted things in
favor of assassins, but I don't know that besides perhaps one or
two issues, there's anything ungodly broken. In part, I suspect
some of the issue is the human tendency to ignore the 12 times an
assassin jumped them, or mid-fight no ground control, but remembers the Glikhardiz fight where things aligned and the
perma-lag finishes him off. Spent a little time spamming throw on some heroimm victims (Thaedan. Lots of abusing Thaedan), and
actually had very few perma-lagging throws, edges and all.