Subject: "RE: I normally wouldn't agree with this type of thing..." This topic is locked.
Previous topic | Next topic
Printer-friendly copy Email this topic to a friend CF Website
Top General Discussions Gameplay Topic #63297
Show all folders

UmironThu 21-Apr-16 07:14 PM
Member since 29th May 2017
1495 posts
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to add this author to your buddy list
#63425, "RE: I normally wouldn't agree with this type of thing..."


          

>TL;DR: The reality that needs to be confronted in my opinion
>is that the playerbase hasn't declined from vitriolic players,
>cheaters, or "better" alternatives. It has decreased because
>the game is less fun to play than it used to be.

That may be true for some people, but for at least most of them I don't think it's for the reason(s) you think, or even the reasons those people might claim. CF is (for a game) very old, and partly to our discredit, maybe a little stale. Players get bored of games. Even when the players themselves don't change much, they tend to go from one game to the next for the sake of variety, amongst other things. To expect that we'll be able to please everyone or to please the same people for 20+ years is a difficult thing to do, but I do believe that by and large we do a better job than we get credit for.

>But as someone who rarely plays anymore, I can honestly say
>it's not because of the content of the game, it's because of
>the prioritization of things that have been put in, and how
>the staff chooses to react to critique.

I'm sorry to hear that, and disappointed that those things make the game unplayable for you despite the fact that you (presumably) do find the content appealing.

>The problem I'm seeing right now is that the staff appears to
>be more interested in being right, than making the game better
>- and they also cater to a crowd that has similar ideas of
>what's "right". Before, there used to be a much more diverse
>staff, who were open to different ideas, were more okay with
>the occasional joke, etc. Nowadays, it's the hammer approach
>to all dissent, justification of low numbers due to vitriolic
>playerbase, and any number of other justifications.

I'm not sure when you mean by "before", but I disagree that the staff is any less diverse than it was then. Smaller, sure, but we definitely have staff of various backgrounds, opinions with regards to gameplay, approaches to policing the game, etc.

>The reality that needs to be confronted in my opinion is that
>the playerbase hasn't declined from vitriolic players,
>cheaters, or "better" alternatives. It has decreased because
>the game is less fun to play than it used to be. I haven't
>found a MUD that is as fun as CF used to be - but I know of
>plenty of MUDs that are as fun or more fun than CF is *now*.

Fair enough.

>Being in management, I can point to a few key behaviors that I
>personally identify with in terms of not wanting to be around
>them:
>
>1. Lack of transparency or participative decision making.

I'd be willing to bet that we're more receptive and responsive to constructive player feedback than ever before, but I wasn't always around so I'm just guessing. I also think we're more transparent than we've ever been before with the exception of rules violations, on which our view hasn't changed since 1994 and I support that.


>2. Blame shifting "fun"-ness of the game to vitriolic players,
>and not the admins responsible for keeping a game fun and
>playable.

I *do* think vitriolic players hurt, but I don't blame them for "ruining CF". I don't think that's our collective position either.

I know this probably isn't what some of you want to hear, but at the end of the day CF always has and probably always will be something that a handful of people do as a hobby for their own enjoyment first and foremost, and that anyone bothers to play it is icing on the cake. That isn't meant to sound selfish, egotistical or rude, it's just the truth. CF is not a product or a startup or something that I feel like we "owe" anyone. A handful of people have years of sweat equity in CF and as long as they/we remain passionate about our game it stands to reason we would continue to develop the kind of game that we get satisfaction from creating. In that sense, it's more an art than a business (which people often try to analogize CF with) in that we do it because we enjoy it, not because we care of anyone buys our paintings. Handing over the keys to someone else, letting players drive us away, or simply letting a vocal few dictate our choices so that the thing we're passionate about and personally invested in might be more appealing to a subset of our players just doesn't make any sense.


>3. Ousting people from staff who represented a large portion
>of playerbase opinion and preferences through various methods,
>direct or indirect.

Believe me or don't (I don't care), I have no idea who you might be referring to. If you care to email me, I'd be happy to hear more because this doesn't seem like something that's happened since I've been on the staff and if it has, I'd want to do my best to make sure it never happens again.

>When people don't see transparency or feel like they can
>participate in what they consider something very dear to them,
>they cut ties and move on. That's a healthy person's approach
>to situations like that, in my opinion. Some people stick
>around, hoping that they can change opinions through words,
>but that only works when the person in power is legitimately
>willing to accept constructive criticism on a real level, and
>not already have their mind made up on the way forward before
>hearing out the critique.

I agree with you.

>When blame is shifted to the "vitriolic" players, it bothers
>me. There were plenty of cheaters, plenty of vitriol, plenty
>of multikillers, plenty of full looters, and plenty of other
>douchebaggery through the entire history of CF. That's never
>gone away, and was part of the fun sometimes. People grow up
>- that I get, and sure, it's arguable that part of the decline
>in playerbase is due to different medium for games - but as a
>person who has an awesome new HTC vive, a pimp as computer,
>and any number of other avenues for entertainment - CF
>fulfilled all of the needs I had for a creative outlet,
>adrenaline rush, relationships, and a number of other aspects
>of life that I felt a need to have. My personal reason for
>not sticking around is consistently getting the feeling like I
>couldn't affect positive change, because my opinion on what
>positive change was conflicts with the current/at the time
>crop of imm staff. I can only invest so much emotional effort
>and hope into something I care about (Like CF), before I have
>to cut ties and move on.

Fair enough. At the end of the day though, if it does come down to what the majority of the staff thinks is the right direction versus what you think is the right direction, I hope you understand why we go the direction we do. Likewise, I certainly understand why if you felt or feel like the game just isn't for you anymore that you'd find something that is.

>The last issue from my side of things, aside from the above
>points, is watching Imm staff that represented my opinions and
>the things I loved about CF (How they did interactions, what
>sort of roleplay they fostered, etc) get ousted through
>political BS, legitimately being unpleasant, leveraging
>relationships with IMPs, etc. This isn't limited to other
>Imms - it's been slowly but consistently happening over the
>last ~10 years. People who disagree with current higher up
>staff are pushed out the door with a gift bag of "This is your
>fault" and a letter jacket from "Not my problem" high school.
>That OOC interaction and watching it over the years has soured
>my interactions with specific Imms to the point that I
>legitimately cannot separate my OOC knowledge of their
>interactions from my IC interactions as a character.

I have to assume you're referring to Baerinika, I guess. I don't feel like going there (again), but if it matters to you or anyone else, Baerinika hasn't logged in for quite some time and her husband hasn't played in almost a year. As for IMPs, only one plays with any regularity whatsoever. So the past being what it is (or isn't), while I think some of you have fair points and reasonable feedback, it's time to start blaming somebody else. Or maybe that paragraph went way over my head and I'm woefully clueless about something, who knows. Again, you're welcome to email me with anything that isn't obviously a conspiracy theory and I promise I will at the very least read it and take it seriously.



  

Alert | IP Printer Friendly copy

HOT Locked TopicIt looks like you are actually trying to kill this game... [View all] , robdarken_, Wed 13-Apr-16 07:41 AM
Reply I normally wouldn't agree with this type of thing..., Bubthegreat, 21-Apr-16 03:03 AM, #55
Reply Huh? What? Huh?, TMNS, 21-Apr-16 04:18 AM, #56
Reply That seemed a tad harsh. nt, Saagkri, 21-Apr-16 08:43 AM, #57
Reply It might have been, was 6am here so I was fighting slee..., TMNS, 21-Apr-16 07:54 PM, #60
Reply Haha. Replied under the wrong post. I agree with Sam's ..., jalbrin, 21-Apr-16 02:41 PM, #58
Reply RE: Huh? What? Huh?, Bubthegreat, 22-Apr-16 02:35 AM, #61
Reply RE: I normally wouldn't agree with this type of thing....., Umiron, 21-Apr-16 07:14 PM #59
     Reply RE: I normally wouldn't agree with this type of thing....., Bubthegreat, 22-Apr-16 02:46 AM, #62
          Reply Aaaaand I'm back to the not okay with it., Bubthegreat, 25-Apr-16 03:52 AM, #63
               Reply I still do it manually., Murphy, 25-Apr-16 04:50 AM, #64
               Reply This particular instance is just silly to try and white..., Destuvius, 25-Apr-16 05:45 AM, #65
               Reply I think he believed he wasn't breaking the rules., robdarken_, 25-Apr-16 08:41 AM, #67
               Reply On that note, thread locked due to clutter., Jormyr, 25-Apr-16 09:44 PM, #72
               Reply RE: Aaaaand I'm back to the not okay with it., robdarken_, 25-Apr-16 09:06 AM, #68
               Reply relax man, laxman, 25-Apr-16 11:33 AM, #69
               Reply The docks aren'the even that bad to do..., Onewingedangel, 25-Apr-16 12:39 PM, #70
               Reply Let me get this straight, TJHuron, 25-Apr-16 04:18 PM, #71
Reply My own personal CF odyssey of the last 2 decades, laxman, 19-Apr-16 10:19 PM, #53
Reply I'm still mad I was wasting my time partying in HS inst..., TMNS, 20-Apr-16 12:08 AM, #54
Reply My personal comments, Jormyr, 13-Apr-16 12:44 AM, #39
Reply Whatever Jorm, you promised us you'd publish your taxes..., Raltevio, 13-Apr-16 02:47 AM, #41
Reply RE: Whatever Jorm, you promised us you'd publish your t..., robdarken_, 13-Apr-16 07:04 AM, #46
Reply RE: My personal comments, robdarken_, 13-Apr-16 07:09 AM, #45
     Reply RE: My personal comments, Jormyr, 13-Apr-16 02:16 PM, #47
Reply I started writing a long post, but what it amounted to ..., Raltevio, 12-Apr-16 03:24 AM, #19
Reply Y'all just need to chill, Quiet Majority (Anonymous), 12-Apr-16 06:46 PM, #37
Reply RE: Y'all just need to chill, Raltevio, 13-Apr-16 03:50 AM, #43
     Reply Brilliant. Thank you for saying this. :-) n/t, Evil_Ranger, 13-Apr-16 03:53 AM, #44
     Reply I disagree on one minor point, Doof, 19-Apr-16 05:56 AM, #51
          Reply One thing I feel you left out., Onewingedangel, 19-Apr-16 05:10 PM, #52
Reply House building, Swordsosaurus, 12-Apr-16 09:30 PM, #38
Reply So a few comments., Raltevio, 13-Apr-16 02:43 AM, #40
     Reply RE: So a few comments., Swordsosaurus, 13-Apr-16 03:21 AM, #42
Reply RE: I started writing a long post, but what it amounted..., Eskelian, 15-Apr-16 08:14 AM, #48
     Reply You misunderstand.., Raltevio, 15-Apr-16 06:45 PM, #49
Reply Why CF is dead and isn't coming back, HardTruth, 11-Apr-16 06:40 PM, #2
Reply I like Umiron. I think they do a pretty good job lately..., Lhydia, 11-Apr-16 06:43 PM, #
Reply Umiron hands your village assassins legacies. I'm not s..., HardTruth, 11-Apr-16 06:45 PM, #4
Reply Sweet. , Lhydia, 11-Apr-16 06:47 PM, #5
Reply I am being helpful right now, by giving my genuine opin..., HardTruth, 11-Apr-16 06:50 PM, #6
     Reply Oh okay. Good talk. Very helpful. Thanks. n/t, Lhydia, 11-Apr-16 06:51 PM, #7
Reply #### you, leave Jalim alone nt, N b M, 11-Apr-16 08:56 PM, #10
Reply I honestly agree here., Onewingedangel, 11-Apr-16 06:55 PM, #8
Reply RE: Why CF is dead and isn't coming back, Destuvius, 11-Apr-16 08:49 PM, #9
Reply RE: Why CF is dead and isn't coming back, Swordsosaurus, 11-Apr-16 09:59 PM, #11
Reply I love Matrik...but one of our best players???, TMNS, 11-Apr-16 10:20 PM, #12
Reply Yes, Swordsosaurus, 11-Apr-16 10:26 PM, #14
Reply There is a reason for that..., Destuvius, 12-Apr-16 05:44 AM, #21
     Reply Pretty sure.., Lhydia, 12-Apr-16 06:35 AM, #22
     Reply RE: Pretty sure.., Destuvius, 12-Apr-16 08:40 AM, #24
     Reply Agreed, Never understood the..., TMNS, 12-Apr-16 09:36 AM, #25
     Reply Yeah but you're resident drama king..., Lhydia, 12-Apr-16 09:58 AM, #27
          Reply I mean, that is a valid conspiracy theory., TMNS, 12-Apr-16 11:42 AM, #28
               Reply As the trusted reader I can confirm both of those claim..., robdarken_, 12-Apr-16 01:00 PM, #29
                    Reply Well, there you have it. NT, TMNS, 12-Apr-16 01:10 PM, #30
                         Reply Now we know. n/t, Lhydia, 12-Apr-16 03:38 PM, #32
     Reply You misunderstood, Swordsosaurus, 12-Apr-16 03:37 PM, #31
          Reply RE: You misunderstood, Destuvius, 12-Apr-16 06:27 PM, #35
Reply RE: Why CF is dead and isn't coming back, robdarken_, 12-Apr-16 12:29 AM, #15
Reply I suppose its a chicken/egg problem, Destuvius, 12-Apr-16 05:38 AM, #20
     Reply RE: I suppose its a chicken/egg problem, robdarken_, 12-Apr-16 03:51 PM, #33
          Reply RE: I suppose its a chicken/egg problem, Destuvius, 12-Apr-16 06:36 PM, #36
Reply Perhaps he just has a healthy fear of retribution., Grifter, 12-Apr-16 05:01 PM, #34
Reply Umiron is the most transparent, not least., KoeKhaos, 16-Apr-16 11:16 AM, #50
Reply RE: Why CF is dead and isn't coming back, Isildur, 25-Apr-16 07:29 AM, #66
Reply I'm not and I've never gotten the impression any other ..., Umiron, 11-Apr-16 06:34 PM, #1
     Reply RE: I'm not and I've never gotten the impression any ot..., robdarken_, 11-Apr-16 06:44 PM, #3
          Reply Dude...they let Torak come back., TMNS, 11-Apr-16 10:22 PM, #13
               Reply RE: Dude...they let Torak come back., robdarken_, 12-Apr-16 12:57 AM, #16
                    Reply Would it be better if matrix still played?, incognito, 12-Apr-16 01:29 AM, #17
                    Reply Who are you again?, robdarken_, 12-Apr-16 01:51 AM, #18
                         Reply Someone who dealt with your dios troll pack, incognito, 12-Apr-16 07:59 AM, #23
                    Reply Agreed about banning him from the forum., TMNS, 12-Apr-16 09:40 AM, #26
Top General Discussions Gameplay Topic #63297 Previous topic | Next topic