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ValguarneraMon 20-Aug-07 10:42 AM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#1290, "RE: Mutation rates"
Edited on Mon 20-Aug-07 10:43 AM

          

Only thing, I think, is that it's not entirely clear what exactly triggers mutation. Or at least it isn't to me. I doubt it's about 'defects' in genetic material alone.

It's fairly well understood, at least in a broad sense. Some categories, and analogies to copying a book:

Typos: The easiest measurement of mutation rates are simply copying mistakes by the enzymes that handle replicating genetic material. Even the humble E. Coli uses at least 20 different proteins to copy its DNA, and depending on growth conditions it will make an error every 108 to 1010 base pairs or about 1 error per 1,000 new bacteria. (Remarkably, the only reason it's that good is because some of those enzymes crawl along completed DNA and effectively edit out mismatches that cause distortions in the double helix.)

Finding a smudged word: Beyond that, pathogen, chemical, or radiation damage to genetic material can up that rate. If a given base pair has been modified (oxidized, etc.) it may not get 'read' correctly by the team of proteins, and the next generation may perpetuate that mistake. In the worst case scenario, the replication proteins get to the mistake and effectively fill in random junk.

Skipping a page by accident: There's also a host of mechanisms by which organisms (particularly those with high reproduction rates, like bacteria) cut, paste, shuffle, and otherwise modify their genome beyond simple copying errors. Most of these changes end up being lethal (and thus removed from the gene pool), but at a high enough reproduction rate it's still a sustainable strategy that can increase overall fitness-- every once in a while one of these mutant bacteria acquires a novel trait that allows it to either outcompete its ancestors or else occupy a niche unavailable to them.

Also, some macro-level mutations (eye color, some diseases, whatever) are actually the result of many genes interacting. There, even if the copying is perfect, just the usual shuffling of genes during sexual reproduction will occasionally produce a novel result from old pieces. Genetics is full of examples where the sum is very different than the parts.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

  

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HOT TopicAbout evolution [View all] , Nightgaunt_, Mon 20-Aug-07 09:43 AM
Reply Final thoughts., Eskelian, 22-Aug-07 08:25 AM, #72
Reply RE: Final thoughts., Nightgaunt_, 22-Aug-07 12:30 PM, #76
Reply RE: Final thoughts., Eskelian, 22-Aug-07 01:00 PM, #78
     Reply I've got to tell you:, Daevryn, 22-Aug-07 01:16 PM, #79
     Reply RE: I've got to tell you:, Eskelian, 22-Aug-07 01:22 PM, #80
          Reply RE: I've got to tell you:, Tac, 22-Aug-07 01:37 PM, #83
          Reply RE: I've got to tell you:, Valguarnera, 22-Aug-07 03:06 PM, #86
          Reply RE: I've got to tell you:, Eskelian, 22-Aug-07 09:51 PM, #90
               Reply Actually, Nightgaunt_, 23-Aug-07 01:49 AM, #93
               Reply RE: Actually, Eskelian, 23-Aug-07 08:17 AM, #99
                    Reply RE: Actually, Nightgaunt_, 23-Aug-07 09:42 AM, #104
               Reply RE: I've got to tell you:, Valguarnera, 23-Aug-07 07:25 AM, #95
          Reply RE: I've got to tell you:, Eskelian, 22-Aug-07 09:44 PM, #89
               Reply RE: I've got to tell you:, Nightgaunt_, 23-Aug-07 09:50 AM, #105
          Reply RE: I've got to tell you:, Daevryn, 22-Aug-07 03:16 PM, #87
          Reply RE: I've got to tell you:, Eskelian, 22-Aug-07 09:40 PM, #88
               Reply RE: I've got to tell you:, Daevryn, 22-Aug-07 11:04 PM, #92
                    Reply RE: I've got to tell you:, Eskelian, 23-Aug-07 08:01 AM, #97
                         Reply RE: I've got to tell you:, Daevryn, 23-Aug-07 08:11 AM, #98
                         Reply RE: I've got to tell you:, Eskelian, 23-Aug-07 08:25 AM, #100
                              Reply RE: I've got to tell you:, Daevryn, 23-Aug-07 08:52 AM, #101
                              Reply If you read something you believe to be true, Leprechaun, 23-Aug-07 09:11 AM, #102
                         Reply RE: Book Larnin, Valguarnera, 23-Aug-07 09:12 AM, #103
                              Reply RE: Book Larnin, Eskelian, 23-Aug-07 01:18 PM, #106
                                   Reply RE: Book Larnin, Valguarnera, 23-Aug-07 02:03 PM, #107
                                        Reply RE: Book Larnin, Eskelian, 03-Sep-07 03:09 PM, #112
          Reply Water is wet ..., Leprechaun, 23-Aug-07 03:18 AM, #94
     Reply RE: Final thoughts., Nightgaunt_, 22-Aug-07 01:23 PM, #81
          Reply RE: Final thoughts., Eskelian, 22-Aug-07 01:32 PM, #82
               Reply RE: Final thoughts., Nightgaunt_, 22-Aug-07 01:48 PM, #84
Reply The problematic of the issue, DurNominator, 26-Aug-07 10:18 PM, #108
Reply I feel that this is on topic, DurNominator, 12-Sep-07 04:10 PM, #117
Reply RE: About evolution, Tac, 20-Aug-07 04:52 PM, #9
Reply RE: About evolution, Daevryn, 20-Aug-07 10:02 PM, #13
     Reply RE: About evolution, Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 08:47 AM, #18
          Reply RE: About evolution, Nightgaunt_, 21-Aug-07 09:02 AM, #21
          Reply RE: About evolution, Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 09:06 AM, #23
               Reply And the bottom line..., Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 09:16 AM, #25
               Reply RE: And the bottom line..., Valguarnera, 21-Aug-07 12:31 PM, #44
                    Reply RE: And the bottom line..., Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 12:37 PM, #47
                         Reply Silly?, GinGa, 22-Aug-07 08:47 AM, #73
               Reply Sorta side-track, but ..., Leprechaun, 21-Aug-07 10:10 AM, #29
          Reply RE: About evolution, Daevryn, 21-Aug-07 09:38 AM, #28
Reply RE: About evolution, Isildur, 20-Aug-07 11:25 AM, #4
Reply RE: About evolution, Nightgaunt_, 20-Aug-07 01:29 PM, #6
     Reply RE: About evolution, Isildur, 20-Aug-07 05:11 PM, #10
          Reply RE: About evolution, Nightgaunt_, 21-Aug-07 08:54 AM, #20
               Reply RE: About evolution, Isildur, 21-Aug-07 11:03 AM, #38
                    Reply Do you consider it possible to prove God exits?, Tac, 21-Aug-07 11:53 AM, #40
                         Reply RE: Do you consider it possible to prove God exits?, Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 12:31 PM, #43
                         Reply RE: Do you consider it possible to prove God exits?, Tac, 21-Aug-07 12:33 PM, #45
                              Reply RE: Do you consider it possible to prove God exits?, Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 12:38 PM, #48
                                   Reply Seriously?, Tac, 21-Aug-07 12:50 PM, #53
                                        Reply RE: Seriously?, Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 01:12 PM, #56
                                             Reply RE: Seriously?, Tac, 21-Aug-07 02:09 PM, #58
                                                  Reply RE: Seriously?, Eskelian, 22-Aug-07 08:49 AM, #74
                         Reply RE: Do you consider it possible to prove God exits?, Isildur, 21-Aug-07 03:26 PM, #61
Reply Yes, very much so, Leprechaun, 20-Aug-07 10:11 AM, #2
Reply RE: Mutation rates, Valguarnera, 20-Aug-07 10:43 AM #3
     Reply Hey cool, thanks for the info nt, Leprechaun, 20-Aug-07 12:10 PM, #5
     Reply On the subject of mutation: Cancer, Leprechaun, 21-Aug-07 06:54 AM, #15
          Reply RE: On the subject of mutation: Cancer, Valguarnera, 21-Aug-07 12:40 PM, #49
               Reply A small addition, GinGa, 22-Aug-07 10:12 AM, #75
Reply RE: About evolution, Valguarnera, 20-Aug-07 10:02 AM, #1
     Reply RE: About evolution, Eskelian, 20-Aug-07 03:49 PM, #7
          Reply RE: About evolution, Nightgaunt_, 20-Aug-07 04:10 PM, #8
          Reply RE: About evolution, Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 08:43 AM, #17
          Reply RE: Irreducible complexity, Valguarnera, 20-Aug-07 08:50 PM, #11
          Reply RE: Irreducible complexity, Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 08:37 AM, #16
               Reply About random, Nightgaunt_, 21-Aug-07 08:52 AM, #19
                    Reply RE: About random, Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 09:20 AM, #24
                         Reply RE: About random, Nightgaunt_, 21-Aug-07 09:22 AM, #26
                              Reply RE: About random, Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 09:29 AM, #27
                                   Reply RE: About random, Nightgaunt_, 21-Aug-07 09:45 AM, #30
          Reply RE: About evolution, Daevryn, 20-Aug-07 09:49 PM, #12
               Reply Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be incor..., Leprechaun, 21-Aug-07 05:19 AM, #14
               Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 09:03 AM, #22
                    Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Valguarnera, 21-Aug-07 09:50 AM, #31
                         Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 10:26 AM, #32
                         Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Nightgaunt_, 21-Aug-07 10:18 AM, #33
                         Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 10:29 AM, #34
                              Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Nightgaunt_, 21-Aug-07 10:39 AM, #36
                                   Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 10:47 AM, #37
                         Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Valguarnera, 21-Aug-07 12:22 PM, #42
                              Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 12:35 PM, #46
                                   Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Valguarnera, 21-Aug-07 12:41 PM, #50
                                   Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 12:44 PM, #51
                                        Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Valguarnera, 21-Aug-07 12:47 PM, #52
                                             Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 12:51 PM, #54
                                                  Reply RE: Solipsism:, Valguarnera, 21-Aug-07 02:13 PM, #59
                                                       Reply RE: Solipsism:, Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 05:02 PM, #63
                                                            Reply RE: Solipsism:, Valguarnera, 22-Aug-07 07:43 AM, #68
                                   Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Daevryn, 21-Aug-07 01:10 PM, #55
                                        Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 01:34 PM, #57
                                             Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Nightgaunt_, 21-Aug-07 02:14 PM, #60
                                                  Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Eskelian, 21-Aug-07 04:57 PM, #62
                                                       Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Nightgaunt_, 22-Aug-07 04:22 AM, #65
                                                            Reply RE: Observables, Valguarnera, 22-Aug-07 07:35 AM, #67
                                                            Reply RE: Observables, Eskelian, 22-Aug-07 08:06 AM, #70
                                                                 Reply RE: Observables, Valguarnera, 22-Aug-07 08:14 AM, #71
                                                                      Reply RE: Observables, Eskelian, 22-Aug-07 12:49 PM, #77
                                                                           Reply RE: Observables, Valguarnera, 22-Aug-07 02:57 PM, #85
                                                                           Reply RE: Observables, Eskelian, 22-Aug-07 10:27 PM, #91
                                                                           Reply RE: Observables, Valguarnera, 23-Aug-07 07:24 AM, #96
                                                                           Reply RE: Observables, DurNominator, 27-Aug-07 12:33 AM, #110
                                                                           Reply RE: Observables, Eskelian, 27-Aug-07 10:32 AM, #111
                                                                           Reply Then don't, DurNominator, 03-Sep-07 03:42 PM, #113
                                                                           Reply RE: Then don't, Eskelian, 03-Sep-07 10:10 PM, #114
                                                                           Reply Re: Trolling, Daevryn, 03-Sep-07 10:41 PM, #115
                                                                           Reply RE: Re: Trolling, Tac, 04-Sep-07 08:34 AM, #116
                                                                           Reply RE: Re: Trolling, Eskelian, 18-Sep-07 10:14 PM, #118
                                                                           Reply RE: Observables, DurNominator, 26-Aug-07 11:46 PM, #109
                                                            Reply RE: Basically any theory is valid unless proven to be i..., Eskelian, 22-Aug-07 08:00 AM, #69
                         Reply Sure but txt, Larcat, 21-Aug-07 10:39 AM, #35
                              Reply RE: Sure but txt, Tac, 21-Aug-07 11:50 AM, #39
                              Reply RE: Sure but txt, Valguarnera, 21-Aug-07 12:03 PM, #41
               Reply RE: About evolution, Straklaw, 22-Aug-07 03:33 AM, #64
                    Reply RE: Mathematics, Valguarnera, 22-Aug-07 07:23 AM, #66
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