I can understand both sides of this discussion, however I see both sides making many assumptions and mistakes. Vaulg , if I told you water was wet and the sky was blue, but prior I had ripped you off or cheated in a game of cards. Would that make what I told you any more ture or false ? hehehe really man for a immortal to ignore anyones comment is poor in my view. I would agree with jhyr about the fact that 3 instances in 250 hours is ##### all.

People are human, they make mistakes, 3 mistakes in 250 hours is a pretty impressive ratio, hell id be impressed with 25 mistakes in 100 hours. People make mistakes, they normally try and learn from them.
-problem is often immortals dont give the learning aspect to players.
- the wizi invis approach is often as useless as just telling them nothing.
(example: I had a paladin who unempowered me, they stayed wizi. They sent not tells nothinig. I had to make the assumption that it was my god at the time (boltthrower) I was totaly baffled because In my rp I had done nothing wrong. When BT returned he was really pissed off that another immortal had interfeared with one of his followers)

The above example is prime, what is wrong with immortals being vis when they deal out punishment ? Trans a person to the realm of the dead and incog. Tell them off bluntly and directly ooc. Tell them "Hey we have noticed that you have been logging out as soon as your cabal item has been taken, Why?" Now obviously the person could ##### and say ohh, ummm call waiting or something. Sure it might be true but even so you have told him that you have seen something that you dislike. However if he said my baby was crying in his crib again, would you find that a justifiable. He might have logged out about 150 times in 250 hours of gameplay. Is 3 circumstances in 150 really that bad ?

Side reason that has me buffled: Out of all the cabals on cf, the only cabal which I think has a viable reason to quit out after you lose the cabal item is battle. All the other cabals provide no negative aspect to losing the cabal item. They can still use their character and all magical items, their whole rp and survival isnt based on their cabal powers to fill the massive void. Do the immortals see this. Quitting out after scion loses it item I dont think is anything bad. Quitting out whilst they raid for the item, hehe that is bad.

Players often neglect how often immortals are on... again this is because imms have the wizi invis disease, Immortals often sit for hours at a time snooping players. In all my years on cf, I have only encountered a single immortal who acted for benifit for the game. Twist snooped a entropy invoker I had a long time ago, he would often punish me here and there for mistakes that I made. When I say punish he would smite , tell me off or remove a perm spell slot from his tattoo. The problem was that back in those days I was stubborn I had little patience for them "they only interfeared in my game".

Times have changed and now more than ever it now takes a bare min of 75-100 hours to have a character where before you could do it in 25-40 hours. Imms are killing ants with neuclear weapons instead of just burning them with a magnifined glass. Problem is, they are also doing similar actions to players. Try not to go to extremes, you could give a title to a player, but not kick him from the cabal. Give him something that will brand him, tell him that he can have the brand removed if he improves.

Hastur the wimp, running from his obligations.

If I saw a player with that who was in my cabal It would make me laugh as well as make me A) want to ask him what he was titled for B) rp with him based on such a title. he would be "disgraced" in my characters view. He would have to earn it back... Ever thought of being a bit more creative, or are you still a nuke bomb wielder and prefer to just outright kill players ?


Side note: Do you immortals actually know wtf it is like to continue on and play after you have been removed from a cabal ? Do you have any clue as to how much harder it gets to actually survive? I've had two chars that have been re-empowered after losing empowerment. I've had five chars that have got back into cabals after being removed, not outcast. I get back in and I was a) treated like ##### from the imms, the players and in general was worse off than I was before.

The reason why many players delete after being outcast from a cabal is often because immortals take ten times as long to reinduct that it takes for a player to level up a new character and get it into a cabal. I could probably get a rager in under a week, maybee two at most and that is one of the more difficult cabals to gain entrance into. Others take less time, yet to get back into a cabal the imms ##### you around for well over two weeks or more. If anything I think you should reward heavily someone who achieves this.


So to cut it short, the imms are right as to why, but they go about it the wrong way. Players are right for some of their reasons, but wrong in how they go about it. Do these intertwine at all? No. Immortals need to think alot more about their actions on players. Players need to be a bit more tolerant of the Immortals.

But hell what would I know I've earned no imms trust hehe. (j/k)