Hey!

Thieves in general are very underpowered and usually the points are such that taking things like isolate or dual backstab are just not good options. Aside from cheap shot and possibly knife, I doubt many people take a lot of those skills. And certainly no one takes something like a climb. I don't think it would break anything if all thieves just got those skills without points. It would certainly add some tricks to their arsenal and make them more sneaky. And with the exception of cheap shot, none of them are game changers. Even cheap shot is not that awesome against competent people. If you want, make it and maybe knife, blackjack and weapon trip still cost points. But I would argue nothing will break if all thieves just gained all those skills for no points.

As someone who loves thieves... I've made a few suggestions but it is an area I don't think there is much agreement on. I think in today's CF thieves certainly could use a change of some kind. I don't know exactly what that is, but I've thought in terms of PK-Chops, giving them third attack by default would be a big step in the right direction.

Whereas giving them all the fringe stuff for free would retain their flavour.

I'd give them shield block too.

On one side, giving them shield block for free makes it a little easier to roll a griefy thief that can focus on stealing and on being very hard to kill. Not that the ten points is a major deterrent for someone who wants to make this kind of char, but it does mean maybe trading off a little in a secondary path.

Still, them having it for free probably makes more sense, or at least lowering the cost to 2-4 points. I get that it is an always on defensive skill, but they are the only one of the five (non-orc/goblin) melee classes that do not get all three of dodge, parry and shield block. (ranger, bard, warrior, assassin all do)

And the other 4 don't even need it. Non villager thief does, if spending time solo.

The funnest part of playing a thief is creatively messing with people. Hiding while a group ranks in the crypts and opportunistically killing them. Stealing in town. Stealing a cabal item back right after you are raided. Harassing/attacking and being able to get away. Just playing with path combos. Honestly, I suspect a lot reason behind some of the nerfings is because someone got really annoyed by a thief having fun at their expense.

But - the game has changed. There are fewer opponents.

So, I see a lot of funstick benefit in just handing thieves all the general utility/niche skills.

Climb, Covert, Bribe Mercenary, Disengage, Separate - that's not so much is it? I bet a lot of people still won't even burn practices on these.

Oh, and maybe make hypnotize not suck.

I think thieves, and hiders, are doing well enough in lower player counts.

I still think thieves are fun, and I'm not interested in giving them those as freebies.

As to hypnotize, can't say much about it, no idea.

-Ish

*Old man voice* Why in my day, you couldn't even see the thief points! I remember taking a binder to drag and crossing my fingers on thug. Guess what...no cheap shot. You had to play a thief through and just hope for the best with whatever plan you had. Shield block was for trappers. Scrolls for all thieves. I like the 'new' system (I'm sure it's like ten years old or something at this point) and think it's balanced. When I think of a combo that would be very excellent including two whacks of devious versatility (AFAIK three isn't mathematically possible) there's usually a decision to make where I'd like 2 or 3 more points, sometimes even just one, and to me if I'm building a good combo for whatever purpose it seems balanced to me if there HAVE to be tradeoffs. They're usually in the final 'general skills', I'm always satisfied with the path choices. Abandoning general skills usually means some unlikely combo (full 2 paths, for example, which was NOT always possible as I mentioned earlier.

While I think they could use some fine tuning, my general impression is that the IMMs don't play them, or understand them really. I was shocked the thief points being visible came out as well as it did. This isn't a jab at said imms either, the only thing that would shock me more than their having refurbed the class well would be any one of them suggesting they knew much about them. Or cared, frankly, but that's more speculative. I think the class is solid, but it's difficult and it's certainly more utility than it is anything else. I don't necessarily disagree with the poster's sentiment about general skills, but I'd challenge anyone to come up with a better (and complete!) system than there is presently.

Also someone mentioned they're useless against undead at high levels, that is pretty much spot on, save for trappers geared towards combat or thugs patient enough to be the opportunists they should be (waiting for wraithform flight to drop etc) and even then. Always a rock for your scissors, and you can still rob them pretty handily. The class isn't for everyone, but play more combos and come up with a better system than there is or really it just seems like a gripe from a place of ignorance. And it would probably get shot down anyway, that's quite a lot of effort I'd say with no promise of a result!

...I should add I'm obviously biased, I play a lot of thieves. K thanks :)

Send me word on Discord or QHCF.

Don't use either!

Coming to this really late, but what the heck.

If you give thieves a bunch of skills few thieves ever take then you're not boosting them that much. There's a reason they don't take those skills- there are other skills they think are more useful.

If you give thieves skills that many thieves often take then it's roughly equivalent to giving them extra thief points.

IMO thieves are niche. Against some classes in some situations they're pretty great. Against others they absolutely suck. This also depends on the type of thief.

EDITED TO ADD: this was supposed to be in reply to Sertius. Oops.

Feel free to flame me for any or all.

This was just a fun thought exercise for me. That's all.

- Reduce lag on climb to mountain terrain movement
- Make shield block a regular thief skill (Free)
- (Arcane) Remove penalty on scroll skill
- (Arcane) Replace Arcane Lore with talisman
- Return Advanced Lockpick to it's original glory
- Remove IMMxp req for Devious Versatility
- (Pick Pocket) Replace warning skill with payment of the coward from Thug path
- (Thug) Replace Weapon Butt Blackjack and Death Strike* with Grapple and Separate
- Remove the ability for mobs and PCs to be jarred awake when unconscious and being robbed (I fail more this way than just stealing while they're awake)
- (Thug) Make earclap reliable in combat
- (Thug) Make gut more reliable and potent
- (Thug) Make gouge more potent
- (Thug) Make sucker punches maledict like nerve
- (Thug) Remove payment of the coward from this path (Cool skill, but you're no pickpocket!)


*Death Strike is cool, but will also get you killed when when you want to sneak away after someone/thing dies.

I can't speak credibly on binders, poisoners, or trappers, so I won't.

In order, my general thoughts (not intended to flame, just equally sharing):

1. Maybe double that.
2. No.
3. No.
4. No.
5. I think this more has to do with specific locks being buffed, not the skill itself.
6. No.
7. Why?
8. No.
9. No, and if you perfect steal this isn't much of an issue. Just knock them out.
10. I don't know enough about this.
11. I don't know enough about this.
12. I've seen this being really good.
13. Maybe an edge for it instead.
14. I think it's thuggy and cool, so meh.

Personally, I'd rather just see a new path, or some new edge options, etc. But that's me.

5) Return Advanced Lockpick to it's original glory

Correct, the locks were buffed. But, the end result is the same. I suggest debuffing them.

7) (Pick Pocket) Replace warning skill with payment of the coward from Thug path

Because warning skill with deft touch makes low-risk stealing into no-risk stealing. When I played a shifter, when there was a thief on I didn't ally with, I would not be out of form in Galadon for a second. One time I was lured in by someone asking for help. Out of form for less than a tick and lost:
Staff of Wonders
Emerald Periapt
Sapphire Periapt
Notes of the Master
And a couple other items if memory serves. Never even stepped out of the shadows. Payment of the coward seems more pick-pockety than thuggy and compensates for loss of warning skill.

9) Remove the ability for mobs and PCs to be jarred awake when unconscious and being robbed (I fail more this way than just stealing while they're awake)

I always perfect steal. I fail much less often stealing from the same mob if they are awake than if they are unconscious. I suspect that the code has a base chance that they will wake if robbed while unconscious and it is HIGHER than the failure rate of steal when they are awake (and the sleep code is bypassed). If so, that makes no sense.

Because you don't play them and you had some stuff stolen once. RIP your inventory.

My suggestions would affect pickpockets in the following way:

- Warning skill
+ payment of the coward
+ Shield block
+ DV without IMMxp
+ Can steal without your target waking up
+ Can use staves if you choose to spend the points in Arcane

So, overall, pick-pockets get a boost. I took one skill because, like I said, I don't think steal should be a NO-risk proposition when it's low enough with deft touch. Warning skill AND deft touch is just too griefy and I felt the same way when I did play pick-pockets. Staves and shield block mitigate the risk of a failed steal and also increase your ability to use combat steal with lower risk of dying.

So, your characterization of my intent as well as the net effect of my suggestions is just wrong. I don't know why you cannot just discuss the merits of an idea without creating straw men or making accusations about my motives. I make suggestions I think would create a more balances and fun game for everyone.

You hoard like a bastard, passing the same gear from shifter to shifter, thief to thief, and hate it when your shinies are stolen from you.

Tell me when the last time a PICKPOCKET THIEF MADE SOMEONE FLEE IN COMBAT?? Payment of the coward.. what a joke. Did you even think that one through? For gods sake I hope you never get into a position of power in CF when you are able to implement any of these crazy ideas just to suite YOUR play style at the expense of everyone else.

Because you are coming across as rather combative and intentionally obtuse. And, yet again, you've responded with a straw man and personal attacks.

Payment of the coward was not meant to make up for no warning skill and I never said it was. The NET effect of all the changes IMHO is a boost to pick-pockets.

If you'd rather have the warning skill over all the things listed in my last post, then...well, I guess you're entitled to your opinion.

I don't know any players outside the game. I don't go on Discord. And if memory serves, with the exception of a DM from Kstatida years ago about something I already knew, I don't solicit or use any knowledge I didn't discover in game or that's not on the forums as public knowledge. I withdrew my IMM app years back because I didn't want to stop posting on Dio's and did not want to be dishonest and use another handle or a proxy to do it. I share info in game freely with others. So, if you think I've broken any rules, feel free to report it to the IMMs. If I have something shiny you want on a char you think is mine, come get it big boy.

They're not. A well played trapper or poisoner is an absolute nightmare to deal with. Stop thinking that a thug should be able to match it with a warrior in head-to-head.

No one thinks a thug should be able to go head to head with a warrior and to my knowledge no one has said so.

Yes, trappers and poisoners can be a real pain. But, that does not support your assertion that thugs should not have better melee because, as you know, a thug is neither a trapper or a poisoner. Nor are they a binder or pickpocket.

A thug forgoes all those other paths to pursue melee. Yes, they can learn some things in other paths, but not the higher level stuff and if they do try to climb another path, they are giving up thief staples like Gentle Walk, Knife, Cheap Shot, Shield Block, etc. to do it.

One of the reasons why I think that thugs are underpowered at hero is their maledicts. If you can last long enough to Kidney Shot, Gut AND Gouge (that's 5 combat rounds assuming you don't miss any) it's not going to hurt as much as one boneshatter, one kot or kans, impale, etc. as far as stats go. So, while any other class is actually killing you with spells, supps or skills, you are using mediocre direct damage skills that are not going to hinder your foe.

Also, at hero, everyone but ragers has fly up which defeats the most expensive thief skill, cheap shot (even more expensive than acrobatics)...for about 150 copper.

At least at L42, you might get lucky and fight someone not covering stats very well or not flying.

So thieves, as a collective, are not the problem it seems. Certain parts of them could probably be adjusted up (ie: thug maledicts).

>A thug forgoes all those other paths to pursue melee. Yes, they can learn some things in other paths, but not the higher level stuff and if they do try to climb another path, they are giving up thief staples like Gentle Walk, Knife, Cheap Shot, Shield Block, etc. to do it.

That is kind of a weird argument, and to sounds similar to someone saying that their Offense/Water shifter should have a flying form. There is a reason that there is a cost involved with the skills you listed, and its because most of them (other than shield block imo) are WAY more powerful tools to have than things other classes possess by default.

True. I wasn't making the argument that there shouldn't be a trade off. Just saying that to go a second path, you're giving up some pretty nice skills and you still won't reach the top of a second path. As it should be.

To be honest, I am no expert when it comes to several of the paths. I've played a lot of thugs and have a pretty good knowledge of the general thief skills as I've explored them quite a bit. I built a necro-killer with blackjack/isolate/earclap that was nice for a couple of otherwise very tough kills. Of course once they are undead...you are no threat to speak of.

Another challenge to thugs at hero are assassins and duergar warriors as they are the two you cannot avoid by hiding. Both, unless incompetent, can curb stomp a thug without breaking a sweat without trance and without legacies. Duergar Shaman and APs I doubt view a thug as a risk other than getting knocked out and stolen from. Even with earclap on the AP (which is woefully unreliable on an awake foe) your direct damage skills are no match and a thief's limited weapon knowledge means he's eating you in melee anyway. Of course if he has protections...

Starting to sound like a whine fest. But it seems at hero, every class has an answer to thugs and then some. I usually hero a thug before he dies to remind myself why I hadn't before.

It seems like this comes up with some level of regularity, and I just can't reach the same conclusion. I honestly can figure out why we see thives need love way more often then people asking to get rangers some love.

I'd love to write something up that's more comprehensive, but for now I'll just list a couple of ways they've been nerfed since the class was redone into paths.

- Used to be able to lead with weapontrip.
- Advanced lockpicking no longer opens what it used to.
- People/mobs now wake up and attack when you try to steal even after you knock them out
- Gentle walk used to be more powerful (Yes, it was probably not as intended)
- The best thief edge (DV) is just about unobtainable*

*1500 IMM XP. as a prereq. for 10 thief points. That will buy you shield block if you want it. How many hours are people usually at when they hit 1500 IMM xp if ever? Since we don't know how many edge points it takes, that means no edges until you get it. I had a thief with 2xDV years ago. Now, I assume it doesn't exist.

I know there have been others, but I'd have to dig to find out.

There's nothing underpowered about taking people's inventory away without having to be able to kill them. In this way, a mediocre player can control the flow of the game just by being online.

The rest you have to do with a bit of finesse if you're not a lowbie thug. I think that's how it's supposed to work and I prefer it that way, it balances out the gifts of hiding and stealing.

Thieves, like rangers, are at their strongest at like, level 42. Giving them all general skills just ups that ceiling they have at that level.

Except perhaps as a villager thief.

Thugs are very strong in the lower and middle ranks and lose power relative to other classes in the higher ranks, imho.

That said, I probably would do something about thieves. If I had a coder I'd have a second class of thief point that has to be spent on the "weaker" skills.

nt

What's wrong with all thieves having covert, isolate and climb? No one in their sane mind will spend points on most of those skills. If you're afraid of OP 42 thieves, unlock the skills at 47-51. I think it won't be disputed that thieves at 51 are worse off (competitively) than any other class. This would allow for a range of tactics that's currently remains unexplored. If you're too worried about cheap shot, keep it pointed, but the vast number of these skills are very niche and don't really add a lot to the power, just to the possibility of tactical uses of some of them in some situations, which will make the class more interesting. There's nothing OP in thieves, especially now that devious is unattainable for 99% of them and two devious is simply impossible.

It is blanket because I'm just against the idea in general, and don't really support any part of it.

No thief has to take those skills, but they can be niche and useful (a battlerager thief with climb).

I'm not afraid of OP thieves. I just don't think the class is MEANT to be on par with all other classes AND have the ability to empty your inventory without killing you. It's a thief, not an assassin, or a warrior, etc. Not all classes are supposed to be solo-murder-machines. Some folks still manage to make annoyingly deathful thieves (I am not one of them), so it's definitely doable.

It has nothing to do with worry, and everything to do with how I think thieves should work as a class.

BUT I do think emptying someone's inventory without killing them is 'OP' (not in any way I'd want changed). It's a pretty sweet thing to be able to do.

I don't think thieves need an even bigger range of tactics for less work.

-Ish

Give another batch of Thief Points at hero. BAM! Now thieves actually have an incentive to hero AND they will be more competitive in hero ranks.

Easy fix, easy implementation.

I'd just cut what they get in 42 in half. Get half at 42, half at hero.

-Ish


Edited to add: I don't see something that needs fixing.

The point of this thread was that thieves are underpowered at hero. So, your solution would be to force people to hero thieves because they are now underpowered at L42 also??

What would likely happen is that fewer people would play thieves. I didn't know you thought there were too many thieves in Thera. Because that's the only reason to implement "your choice".

Thieves are not supposed to be good at killing things. This is because they are unambiguously the absolute best at theft. Doing more to make thieves competitive at anything else is not a good idea. In fact, making them worse at certain levels at doing things other than theft is - arguably - a good idea, and dropping thief points available at lower levels would accomplish this.

You post a lot about wanting thieves and shifters power increased, which is a bit funny because those are seemingly your favorite classes to play. And they both share the trait of being unambiguously best at filling their niche while also having significant limitations in other niches.

Sure, some forms could use a boost, but what I have advocated is for shifters to be able to either a) have more power over what forms they get OR b) know sooner what forms they'll get. Not to make them more powerful, but to prevent people power-ranking shifters only to delete when they get their final forms when you could have saved them 30+ hours by letting them know at rank 30 or whatever. This is not a Saagkri-only issue. I haven't even rolled a shifter in...well, a very long time. But take Swan...whatever. He just deleted because he got what he thought were two terrible forms for him. He was a good character I enjoyed seeing around and I'll miss him. If he had gotten one of three other def forms, he'd still be playing Swan.

As for thieves, whatever you think thieves are for, a class built on stealing and not much good at anything else is a crappy class. And only one thief path is the "best at theft". That's a pickpocket. There are thug, mystic, binder, poisoner, trappers. If thieves were meant to only be the best at stealing and little else, then you'd have one path.

I don't play pickpockets, because while I like thieves (or rogues, pirates, vagabonds) I don't like to steal. So, I get the steal skill. It's not a sure thing mastered and can get me killed if I try it against someone who can bash (even if I do succeed).

Arial city isn't a prime ranking ground now, and you don't need to fly to enter it.

I honestly can't think of where climb is needed now. Being able to enter talshidar caves isn't a game changer.

Climb is 2points.

You can get places you normally might not be able to, or can do it with more convenience than normal.

Re: arial city. A brief check shows pks happening there every month, ranking happening there every month, etc. So it's still used.

If you can't fly, climb is nice. It may not be heavily needed, but not every skill is meant to be.

-Ish

Yes, you can get to Talshidar caves and those mines. You can get to the southern desert by going around Hamsah. You can get to the Green dragon. Basically, useless. And the lag on climb is horrendous. It doesn't help with quicksand from what I could tell. A waste of 2 points.

For ranking when I am/are with a mage... And there is a known rager in range.

It's not the PB fault that they are essentially a grief class. You don't want to give them a boost because they can clear out your inv. Well, many do not want to play thieves to grief people. And plenty of thief build cannot sit there and clean you out with no risk (like pickpockets). You act like all thieves can and they cannot.

People are normally wearing their best gear. Not carrying it in their inventory.

Sure, some stuff might be in the inventory but the stuff you really want probably isn't.

You seem to think they're underpowered because you want them to be good at something they aren't intended to be. It's like saying rangers are woefully underpowered because they have too much trouble outside of the wilds, when working in the wilderness is the core class concept in the first place.

Also, are you confused about how steal works or something? Non-pickpockets are good at stealing too.

Unless you're robbing a duo, it would be very hard for anyone but an a-p to knock you out of hiding and then also trap you in combat with them, and even then they'd have to get their iceball about the same pulse you stole on. Even wingsweep takes too long so warriors aren't really a threat unless they have maelstrom.

There are potions that do it (chain lightning for example), items that do it (hit the room when sacced), and pills that may do it.

All one tick or less while steal is two ticks.

Funnily enough, thieves used to be dangerous to assassins because they could use maces. Now everyone knows to keep weight down to dodge and maces don't really do enough.

This has less to do with the power of thieves and more about how various code changes have boosted the relative power of assassins.

I would propose removing the assassin class and in its place create an assassins path within the Rogue class, which encompasses the other "thief" paths with which we are all familiar. An assassin who studies poisons? A trapper who learns vanish? I can think of several cool builds.

Not a popular idea, I am sure.

Can then all thieves get general skills?

Why not just play an assassin? Or an orc, if you like cheap shot?

Orc cheap shot of an occasional bonus.

Thief cheap shot is decently reliable.

I think if steal went into the pickpocket path, which isn't a completely awful idea, you would need to stop calling the class thieves.