I would like to ask the immortals to watch Tribunals a bit more closely. This is now the 3rd character (and 6th flag) of which I have been warranted randomly, out of the blue, for nothing. It seems to be a pattern because in game, Outlanders "Don't care about flags or laws so they don't complain". But this is getting out of hand. It also seems to be the player most of the time judging by mannerisms/actions/activity.

I have ate crow for long enough and ask that you at least do some policing or change how it works. I am specifically tired of suddenly getting a warrant because I am going to attempt to retrieve but they have no one in PK and instead warrant so I have to deal with 2 or 3 sets of special guards.

Something happens in game that shouldn't. Who thinks that this action is F'ed up and shouldn't happen?

A) Your character
B) You, the player

If B, there should be an OOC way to report it.
If A, handle it IC.

It's that simple. If you try to handle something that pisses off the player IC when the character wouldn't give a damn, it will:

A) Take the player out of the immersive experience of playing a character in a role-playing game.
B) Be VERY transparent to those who interact with your character on the matter that you are doing it for OOC reasons.

I mean, no Outlander would ever suggest or take steps to encourage a Tribunal to more closely adhere to the rules they've invented. And if they did, it would be obvious to every player why they were doing it.

Problem is, this is B and yet people are told to report it ic.

I also haven't yet played an Outlander that would be willing to report a misflagging. I might mock tribs for it though as it shows they are running scared (in my Outlander eyes).

nt

Send a note in game. Trib has a hierarchy for a reason. That'll do a lot better for you than a forum post.

If you don't appeal it, then often times it isn't seen. IC is IC, so complain there. Trib has a system for it. I knock stuff when I see it IF it's something really worthy of a knock, but I don't see it all.

Outlanders are allowed to care about flags/laws and are allowed to complain. And people can also make fun of you for being an Outlander who is. Just go about it the way your character would. If Tribunal is your enemy, and you know they're bureaucratic to be bogged down in work if you appeal something, then appeal it and force them to work their internal-organization muscles. Consider it a tactic if you want :P.

-Ish


Edited to add: You can see similar history sentiment here: http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=21747&mesg_id=21747&listing_type=search

"Generally, if you think a Tribunal has given you a bogus flag or otherwise has wronged you, you need to appeal to Tribunal mortal leadership or a Tribunal Immortal. It's not a rules matter and other Immortals are not going to get involved. We make an exception when a Tribunal tries to flag a dozen people at random, otherwise, you're on your own -- it plays out IC. They've got a chain of command for a reason; one of those reasons is so I don't need to get those complaints."

I was presented with a fiery ancient admonishing me about how only a pathetic Outlander would care about the laws and their processes. There was also a threat of uninduction involved with it.

So while what you are saying seems to make sense from the "Tribunal Process" standpoint, it doesn't from an Outlander standpoint. Which is specifically why, I feel, these warrants are being placed willy nilly. While your concept of exposing their internal corruption kind of works in concept, its not seen that way, like ever, in the game.

That is why I am doing a forum post, because OOC prayers are super frowned upon, IC notes according to their process is bad Outlander RP, so hence a forum post.

It is extremely frustrating to be constantly warranted and eating mob deaths and having some random player giggle about it as they get away with bad warrants. I'm not the only one suffering here so I ask for a bit more vigilance if you could.

If you approached it from a position of arguing legal specifics with an order cabal, I would have mocked you too. If you sent a simple note claiming corruption, taking pride in the Magistrate breaking his rules, or calling them out on it - I'd be fine with that. I don't know how you did it, so I can't comment on history.

There aren't warrants being placed willy nilly. One warrant was placed. By a guy who has now issued a total of ONE warrants. I think you're stretching a bit in what you think is going on because you're unhappy with this incident.

I don't like dealing with this on the forums. I view it as an IC event. There are a LOT of ways to handle this. I, as an Outlander, would feel entirely comfortable handling this in (off the top of my head) at least 5 ways that wouldn't result in me being mocked. I'm not even that great of an Outlander, so I'm confident you can think of a few as well.

Had you prayed OOC I would have told you it was IC so deal with it IC.

I can understanding not like a bad warrant. But I don't see "constantly". I see one (since I bothered to check).

Again, appeal it IC in any RP that fits your char. Let's have some fun with it in game instead of forum drama :). I've uninducted Magistrates based on things like this before, and other times had really really cool interactions with Outlanders on it. There are a lot of good ways to handle it that could be fun for you and others, I don't see this as one.

-Ish

I don't know that I can say it seems like the same player every time, or that it's happened to me as often -- but on three occasions it has gone down exactly like this. I'm about to raid and retrieve when, boom, I'm warranted for aiding criminals or burning cities (amusingly, once on a Harbinger). So while I don't share the other player's present vehemence, I can attest to there being an issue with this. And, I humbly and respectfully disagree with you, Ish - it's not good Outlander RP to make any kind of effort (even one veiled as braggadocio) to remove a bad flag.

I think what is more bothersome to me is the Provost raiding Outlander with an Orc over and over again. It does seem like maybe, possibly, could-be-that-maybe a little more enforcement of RP is needed for Tribunal. Maybe? Possibly?

Gr

Depends on the Provost.

Tribunal outlines, in its rules (who woulda guessed) what an unacceptable group partner is. And it's based solely on the number of warrants they have, not their racial proclivities. SHOULD they go beyond that and discriminate on other factors? They could, but Tribunal sure loves its technicalities, ORDER!

Could a Provost just loathe orcs entirely and share the view of the Galadonian guards in that orcs suck and should stay away? There have been some who did take that view.

Others don't.

I've only seen, I think, twice in a few years any Magistrate break the 'who you can travel with' rule? That's off the top of my head.


But to repeat, if you've got a bad warrant and you want it noticed, you appeal it. I'm with Daev in his general views of warrants in general. If you don't make noise, I don't see it. If I do see wild regular sketchy behavior, I have knocked it down before. But that requires a trend enough that I notice on my own without you saying anything - and I don't have the time (or interest) to focus all my attention just on that.

Find a cool Outie way to make some noise! You'll even get bonus points for it ;)

-Ish

When I got the talking to (and others have also gotten it in the times I have been in outlander) it was one made to make fun of and jest with them. I get it that you feel there is a path that would simply be fine, but honestly, I don't want to risk it to uninduct my character for some already kick in the junk bullcrap warrant.

Warrants seem to be this strange thing of both OOC and IC. The process also you talked about, has never ever gotten a warrant removed. Because it takes so stupid long that by that time I have already suffered the consequences or the Provost doesn't do anything with it so it doesn't even reach one of you. I'm simply asking to watch it because my experience is real. If it was a one off thing, then I will eat it (as I have been over three characters in the past while). But there is a definite pattern and I wanted to bring it up.

Thank you for listening.

As Tsal I got a warrant for something I hadn't done. (Think I'd killed someone who struck me and died before escaping, maybe?)

Told them the warrant was bothering me and to remove it or I'd take it out on them. They refused to remove it so I chased them out of town (killing one? I forget), killing guildguards in the process.

They then agreed my original warrant was invalid but immediately warranted me for killing guild guards whilst (falsely) wanted. Which I embraced.

It actually made for a decent experience. And being wanted on some builds is actually a good thing.

However, if you are a lowbie retriever and get falsely warranted it completely remove your ability to retrieve against trib, whether in pk or not. Maybe flags should be mechanically required to include the crime, and if the file is retrieval it won't mechanically work on outlanders.

Nothing you do while already wanted is grounds for a flag.

Maybe I'm misreading, but it seems like in your first post you ask for Imm oversight and in this post you shift to "Well an Imm checked it out but I didn't like their answer so now I want other imms to do something."

Also, how often is this really happening. Is it "a few times" over the last few years or is it "constantly?" I feel like this might dictate how the imm responds, too. I've been playing on both sides of this fence recently and haven't seen anything like this at all, so I'm curious about the frequency.

Also, I'll say as somebody who didn't play for years and recently started again, you can get flagged for things now that I don't think were flaggable offenses 5 years ago. This might play somewhat into why you feel like you're getting a flag for no reason.

But yah, handle IC stuff IC.

I've seen outlander get flagged for retrieving, but that was far rarer. What I saw more of was outlanders being flagged (myself included) for defending the outer guardian from having the scales returned. I understand the logic, but for game-sake, the latter should NOT be allowed.

Due to outlander mentality, all I could do was point out the corruption of said law tactics and shrug. But there ought to be some oversight and not left solely to the tribunal members on such occurrences.

This isn't some kind of thing that just never happens or its rare. The very fact I'm here posting about it is because it has become so regular and so annoying, that it should be addressed. I'm purposely keeping the information vague on who and what to not ruin anyone's time, but also want it be known ITS VERY MUCH RUINING MY GAME. I'm being much more considerate than the douchebag that seems to be doing it somewhat consistently. I'm leaving a possibility I may be wrong, and will leave it up to the Immortals to review, and I'll leave it at that. Understand that even the immortal who investigated self admitted to finding at 1 bad flag. Now I doubt Ishuli investigated 6 months of flags. Ishuli probably did the past couple days. But finding at least 1 during that time, reaffirms my point of view, doesn't debunk it.

I won't be talked down to about how it should be IC because I gave very, very valid reasons on why it is not. Other players have also affirmed that very reason why bringing it up IC is dangerous for an Outlander. I get Ishuli is an immortal and has access to more information, but my experience is real, reaffirmed by other players, and happened more than once.

Its become pretty obvious that due to the current setup/oversight, douchebag player #1 who plays Tribunal a lot seems emboldened enough to be doing it without much fear.

What I will say is that while it is annoying and pisses me off greatly, when I do get in their range, I do full sac them in response. And I have had, unfortunately belated justice, when they rage out and delete. I'll leave that as a general warning to douchebags Tribunals who do this kind of thing.

You really doubled down in the not keeping it IC there with the last statements so I wouldn’t really be looking for a change anytime soon.

I think in general all this goes back to the changing of the immguard and millinial IMMs letting players have more control over the destiny of the cabals they lead rather than constant ooc imm involvement. We can’t really have our cake and eat it too. WHERE IS THE IMM OVERSIGHT WHY ARE IMMS ALWAYS HARASSING ME WITH OVERSIGHT.

Just play shifters repeatedly if you get annoyed.




>This isn't some kind of thing that just never happens or its
>rare. The very fact I'm here posting about it is because it
>has become so regular and so annoying, that it should be
>addressed. I'm purposely keeping the information vague on who
>and what to not ruin anyone's time, but also want it be known
>ITS VERY MUCH RUINING MY GAME. I'm being much more considerate
>than the douchebag that seems to be doing it somewhat
>consistently. I'm leaving a possibility I may be wrong, and
>will leave it up to the Immortals to review, and I'll leave it
>at that. Understand that even the immortal who investigated
>self admitted to finding at 1 bad flag. Now I doubt Ishuli
>investigated 6 months of flags. Ishuli probably did the past
>couple days. But finding at least 1 during that time,
>reaffirms my point of view, doesn't debunk it.
>
>I won't be talked down to about how it should be IC because I
>gave very, very valid reasons on why it is not. Other players
>have also affirmed that very reason why bringing it up IC is
>dangerous for an Outlander. I get Ishuli is an immortal and
>has access to more information, but my experience is real,
>reaffirmed by other players, and happened more than once.
>
>Its become pretty obvious that due to the current
>setup/oversight, douchebag player #1 who plays Tribunal a lot
>seems emboldened enough to be doing it without much fear.
>
>What I will say is that while it is annoying and pisses me off
>greatly, when I do get in their range, I do full sac them in
>response. And I have had, unfortunately belated justice, when
>they rage out and delete. I'll leave that as a general warning
>to douchebags Tribunals who do this kind of thing.

How would you handle this as a Provost? Unless you were present for the incident, you'd have only the spoken word of an Outlander vs the spoken word of a Magistrate.

If I was Provost I'd put an end to all this ####ty policy thats been around for a couple of years and go back to just following the laws without exploiting all the loopholes because the mud is a lot more boring without criminals and nobody is around committing crimes.

At some point people invented crimes to have something to do and that is ####ty.

NT

Play ####ters repeatedly

Repeatedly. Preferably by phone.

You playing a battlerager duergar mace/spear attacked me (Kaer) just west of the Captain. A tribunal (gnome warrior, can't remember his name), ran out of the Spire and attacked me too. Then followed on to flag me for murder in protected city.

There is literally nothing that could be done IC in order to lift the flag because IC Kaer did not differentiate between having a flag or not (like guards are cunts anyway so who cares if they attack you on sight).

But OOC, the gameplay is hampered. Please advice.

..you would need the Magistrate in question not to trust the duergar who lied to him about being attacked. Sort of a different situation because you were known for being super aggressive and multi-killing everyone on sight. Your triggers had probably killed the gnome 26 times. When people have an axe to grind against your character they don't need much of a reason to try to use every power at their disposal to kill them. This is completely unrelated to people being flagged for no reason. That guy thought you attacked me in town.

NT

The player thought the flag was unjustified and arbitrary. As described, it sounds like the gnome broke the law and flagged him afterwards to either: provide cover for attacking a non-criminal in town, help him kill the duergar with cabal powers, or hinder his escape for revenge.

Whether the flag was IC/OOC/abuse of power/etc. is irrelevant. The point is that *there was no IC way to address the action of the gnome* to even bring matter to someone's attention who could then investigate it, draw any conclusions, and/or apply some remedy, or even just file the complaint away in case it is/becomes a pattern.

If I think a player is acting OOC to abuse game mechanics to his advantage, there HAS to be a way to report that even if nothing is done about it. It's a whole other ballgame to be told that "Sorry, your character has to break role to have this addressed". That leaves the player feeling cheated, not the character.

He had no malicious intent. He just was playing what was probably his first character (hence gnome tribunal).

There are outlets though. You can write a note, you can pray, or you can RP.

I tend to pray, every time it happens. 'Character X misflagged me intentionally to abuse game mechanics.'

Then I leave it alone.

And it doesn't sound like it's for you.

Full loot wars FTW! Bring it on, bitch.

There’s never been real oversight by the IMMs.

The whole “we let the morts handle it all” line is ####ing old and tired. They don’t give a #### what the mortals do and prefer people to push the limits so long as no one just types warrant x y b over and over.

It’s a law cabal with lawless administration.

It’s just not often that bad because the players typically don’t push the limits.

Sorry Ish but it’s truth.

>There’s never been real oversight by the IMMs.
>
>The whole “we let the morts handle it all” line is ####ing
>old and tired. They don’t give a #### what the mortals do
>and prefer people to push the limits so long as no one just
>types warrant x y b over and over.

I have to admit I'm a bit surprised how much I agree with jalim here. IMMs ensure flags are valid, complaints of heavy-handedness. Let the scenarios run their course in-game, now we don't give a ####. Finding the balance is difficult in all the cabals, and varies based on their idealogy.

>It’s a law cabal with lawless administration.

If you want perfection, likely the only way to even try that is to fully automate it, and even then you're probably looking at overly "letter of the law", and still prone to mistakes (look at Herald bouncers). Ultimately, wanted is truly a cabal power, albeit with perhaps the most broad-ranging consequences. It's an IC response to IC interactions.

In-game, I could honestly see as much argument to Tribunal simply declaring all Outlanders as criminals and dangerous to the population. You've also joined the group that is most specifically least likely to be thought of as unbiased from Tribunal. Also, probably 90% of Outlander roles are the "I'm a rebel, look at my middle finger, Tribs!". The issue is people conflating that rolr and their player perspective of "This is unfair!". The Outlanders who don't get mocked for bringing up unjust flags are ones that stay true to a character who may have been more "See, this is why law is bad! It corrupts and is abused! Freedom!"

OOC-ly, particularly as an Outlander, a wanted flag is minimally disruptive past...25?

>It’s just not often that bad because the players typically
>don’t push the limits.

This more relates to the idea that Tribunal likely tends towards being more "spirit of the law" good, or adherant to the law neutral, rather than like Empire's evil "what can I get away with while following the letter of the law" philosophy.

What I personally find most odd in the scenario is that I find Empire Law to be much more clearcut, and even what wiggle-room that is there is pretty contained. There's a few parts of Tribunal Law that I always felt are a bit too vague, but Tribunal isn't my playground.

The other thing I would personally love to see is some separation between Tribunal Law, Empire Law, and even individual cities. (Really, Voralaian City guard? You're not going to look the other way if someone murderizes the orc who's been killing all the commoners?) But that's just my opinion.

>Sorry Ish but it’s truth.

Always reminds me of the Star Wars quote - "You're going to find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our own point of view." Valguarnera's religion also captured this idea well.


*Edit to add - What I should probably end this with is...what would you (or other players) believe to *be* the perfect solution? Mistakss will happen. Machine, human, fantasy, real life. Look at RL wrongful imprisonments. Sometimes things don't work out your way. Sometimes it's squarely in "gray area". But yes, we do try to be involved in situations of abuse, or even simply "Trib-dude sucks at his job".

I've been jaded against Trib ever since Hitrilimpili ran around giving warrants out for defending the cabal. Imms didn't give a crap then. Wonder who played that dude...?

I don't like trib because this is a PK game and everything about it is essentially anti-pk.

I get it has its place in the game. There needs to be law for the cities. But - it promotes guild sitting and is a go to for people who don't want to be involved in PK or who want to play it safe.

Why do you think it is such a popular path for necros? If you want to safely perfect spells so you can Become just go trib. Plus you get detect hidden.

I mean the whole concept of the cabal is to essentially prevent people from PKing in the cities.

And my previous comments aren't without merit. I can't honestly think of a character who was severely punished for giving questionable warrants. Can you? Every time someone bitches about a Trib (like now) there's always an excuse or the "let the morts deal with it in game" line. Truly, you can get in a lot more trouble for breaking the rules in just about every other cabal. And this is a cabal that is all about rules! I'm honestly surprised more people don't abuse it. Seriously, as a Battle Imm you don't tolerate it when characters break parity or go against the tablet. Why should Trib be held to a lesser standard?

Getting warranted is annoying as hell and especially frustrating when you didn't make the decision to take an action knowing there was the risk of getting warranted.

I get that you disagree. I'm ok with that. Just know it's more of the same old same old to me.

Just once I'd love to hear the Imms say "that's not right. If I see someone handing out questionable warrants I'm going to drop the hammer on them!" instead of defending the behavior and saying keep it in game like Ish is doing above.

People have been kicked out of the cabal for it.

Trib is about PK too. In fact, you get more PK opportunities once they're hunting you too. Think of it that way and you've got a lot more fighting.

Trib detect hidden, for most, is limited to within cities.

Your view is very biased, so it's good you admit that much at least.

But your view isn't accurate given what I've seen, and I've bothered to look more intently as well, and it still doesn't match. But that's typically how things feel can differ from how they are. I'll gladly keep an eye out, though. You're also welcome to try out Trib if you want to see it from another view. I'm definitely taking your view with a grain of salt, though, since you're misrepresenting things.

Thanks for the feedback :).

-Ish

I'm not the guy who started this thread.

And you're welcome! I'll probably take a pass on trying trib out though because I've got better things to do than letting a character idle in a guild ;P

who got a warrant for defending the Huntress.

I've gotten warrants for retrieving. That tapered off, then...

I've gotten warrants for attacking the defender at the captain when I was retrieving. I was told I could retrieve, but not hit the guy or the guards beating on me.

Warrants since the current Provost are largely a gimmick so hero Tribs can pk lowbies.

A few of his magistrates are taking this ball and running with it for all its worth, and a few remember a few decades of precedent.

Wanted flag doesn't stop you from pking anything, it just means you can't pk and then also have the protection and benefits of the city when you want to. I do wish there were more merchants who didn't care about it for people who aren't in outtie.

I was playing a frequently wanted lowbie when flyto provost guards (Pissudin) were a thing, it was #### but that's about the extent of my grievance with trib, and that's no longer possible iirc.

To the extent that it gives players who like it a LOT of buffer before you can do damage to them, so what? Chances are if they don't have that they'll just log out or not play altogether, you can still get to them, and they still can't log too quickly if you hit their outer/guildguard. If I were going to complain about any cabal on this front, it'd be Herald. Hell, I'd #### on outtie for this before trib.

It used to annoy me that hamsah boat merchants were hostile to wanted people.

Outlanders don't care about flags IC, but we as players DO care about flags because criminal changes the game mechanics.

A well-RPed outlander will not show he is concerned by the flags, just like a well-RPed Imperial will not take time to argue with a tribunal about flags.

Tribunal are impostors who have no right to do what they do whatsoever in their eyes.

So no, complain IC doesn't work. It's obviously an OOC issue.

The problem here isn't that an Outlander got flagged, because they don't care. And it would be less troubling if a hero Trib flagged a hero Outlander because he's playing a corrupt Trib. But it sounds like an OOC mechanical exploit when a Trib arbitrarily flags your out-of-range character that could have retrieved without issues, but now cannot retrieve and can be killed with guards by an out-of-range Tribunal.

A Tribunal flag is the only way a hero can directly kill a lowbie. Because of this unique and powerful ability (IMMs have rightly hunted down and fixed every out-of-range murder loophole over the years) there has to be extra scrutiny to make sure it isn't abused.

In any other circumstance, if a hero found a way to kill lowbies and abused that, they would get banned.

Lastly, if you find yourself struggling to justify the IC actions of your char (which this thread clearly does) in an attempt to resolve a OOC mechanical exploit that's possibly being abused, that's the definition of bad RP.