Disclaimer: I just came off a 90 work week doing an awards show in a tent and didn't see Murphy's post below until I came to paste this in. Anyway:

I don’t think I’ll play CF again. I’ve got too many other things going on in my life to want to put time into a game that feels more like a second job than a hobby. Anyway, here’s my unsolicited take on what’s wrong with CF from someone whose last serious character HeroIMMed.

As long as there is interest, there can be CF. As long as ten people are willing to play and someone is willing to code, Thera can be a place. I truly believe this.

The problem is the humongous disconnect between players and IMMs.

Players, you need to chill. Your job is to have fun and make the game fun for others. If you can’t do both at the same time, #### off. “I can only have fun at the expense of others,” is teenage edgelord #### that you all should have outgrown by now. I’m not saying do this or don’t do that, but you can full sac every kill and still make the game fun for others. You just choose not to.
You also need to chill on the forums. I never saw all the way behind the scenes, but I promise you that no IMM is going out of their way to #### you over. I know this because it’s joked about on IMM channels, but honestly no one is emotionally invested enough in this #### to #### with you to the point that your flurries don’t work very well or whatever.

IMMs, by and large you remind me of the kind of guys who manage loading docks in NYC. Yes, it’s a tremendous amount of power to be able to say who can and cannot load or unload at The Sheraton. Yes, you can #### people over, waste their time, and go out of your way to annoy them. But why would you do that? It’s just a ####ing loading dock. It’s just a ####ing text-based adventure game. You guys need to chill. You are big fish in very, very small ponds. Keep that in mind.
Some of you guys seem to actively dislike the players. If you don’t like these people you’re not being compensated to interact with, #### off. At this point just tolerating each other isn’t enough. We need to like the people we play with. If you guys would make the game more fun for the players they would be happier and complain less and you would resent them less. People want edges and Halloween forms. What’s the problem?
The single best thing you could do for this game is find someone who is motivated and available to code. Amazingly you have someone who is chomping at the bit to do this, but you’ve erected an artificial roadblock to keep him away from the code. This isn’t the biggest wound that CF is currently suffering from, but this is where it’s bleeding from. You know exactly what to do to rescue this game. Do it or accept that it’s going to die.

CF is the best escapism I’ve ever experienced and the most fun I’ve ever had in front of a screen. It’s a real shame that it’s on its deathbed, but anyone with a telnet connection can help save it. You all need to make it more fun for each other. Players, you can do that by not being ####s. IMMs, you can do this by examining what the hell you get out of this, because some of you seem to be more annoyed than anything. CF is simple. If you’re not having fun you’re doing it wrong.
All y’all need to get with the ####ing program or this game will be nothing but a memory before too long. It’s frustrating to see how you can save it, but having to wade through post after post of conspiracy theories and well-meaning but ultimately useless input from low level IMMs. Listen to the people and stop locking threads. That’s passive aggressive ####. Do better.
If you all do all this you can make CF a place that I certainly would return to.

Macaca, Homard, Jawn Foote, Mauz, Tanzer and many others.

nt

Here's my well-meaning but ultimately useless input:

1. I don't think the gulf between staff and players is as big as you suggest. Not least of which because many people on staff are also players. I will agree that the gulf between staff and certain players is pretty big, but I suspect they are not representative of the majority of players.

2. I agree that adding things (up to and including making game-play relevant changes, so long as they're not broken) that players "really want" is generally a good thing. Halloween forms are a good example. On the other hand, if you'd asked me in September how big a deal it would be if the staff didn't do Halloween forms I'd have guessed "not that big of a deal"; I suspect those in charge would have guessed the same. I'm honestly surprised they're such a big deal to people.

3. I'm also surprised that everybody seems to think lack of coders is the primary problem facing CF right now. Would more coders really make the game more fun? Honestly, thinking as a player, I'd rather have a ton more Ishulis and Rahsaels. They're heavy on interaction with players and doing one-off events like the recent "missing children" thing. Yes, the game needs coders (to fix bugs if nothing else) but do you really need a steady stream of code changes in order to enjoy the game?

>Here's my well-meaning but ultimately useless input:
>
>1. I don't think the gulf between staff and players is as big
>as you suggest. Not least of which because many people on
>staff are also players. I will agree that the gulf
>between staff and certain players is pretty big, but I
>suspect they are not representative of the majority of
>players.

This is a game very similar to "think of the children", in that anyone can invoke the silent majority, but no one can speak for them. So just speak for yourself. The gulf between you and the staff is not that large... I don't think anyone is surprised by that. That's just true.

>2. I agree that adding things (up to and including making
>game-play relevant changes, so long as they're not broken)
>that players "really want" is generally a good thing.
>Halloween forms are a good example. On the other hand, if
>you'd asked me in September how big a deal it would be if the
>staff didn't do Halloween forms I'd have guessed "not that big
>of a deal"; I suspect those in charge would have guessed the
>same. I'm honestly surprised they're such a big deal to
>people.

Lack of Halloween forms isn't that big a deal. Handling it really poorly, and insulting your player base repeatedly in the process kind of is. It isn't what you do, it's how you do it.

>3. I'm also surprised that everybody seems to think lack of
>coders is the primary problem facing CF right now. Would more
>coders really make the game more fun? Honestly, thinking as a
>player, I'd rather have a ton more Ishulis and Rahsaels.
>They're heavy on interaction with players and doing one-off
>events like the recent "missing children" thing. Yes, the
>game needs coders (to fix bugs if nothing else) but do you
>really need a steady stream of code changes in order to enjoy
>the game?

Yes. New gameplay content is required for a game like CF to thrive. Look at WoW, regularly releasing new expansions roughly every 2 years. Or Hearthstone, with it's 3/year expansion cycle. I can't find the Ad I'm think of, but the one I'm remembering is Valg talking about the long development cycle of a MMORPG because artists and voice actors and coding, and how CF would always outpace such a game because of text and theater of the mind.

You want Immteraction, and "special events". That is one kind of play, and, it seems lately, the only kind that is acceptable, but I don't want that. I want to try a build that's never been tried before. I want to experiment with game mechanics no one has figured out yet... I don't want to play giant sword spec #234234 or d-elf dagger spec emperor #2342, I want to try something new. Halloween forms (would have) scratched that itch, even if I failed to get one, for a least a little while, but the game has not only stagnated, mechanically, but actually moved backward since edges are less available, and rewards are less available, etc.

>The gulf between
>you and the staff is not that large... I don't think anyone
>is surprised by that. That's just true.

True. Then again, until recently I was exclusively a player of mortal characters. Granted that's just one data point, though, so anecdotal.

For what it's worth I'm not 100% in agreement with how everything is done on the staff side. Probably nobody is. In fact it would be weird if everybody were. It's natural for there to be some amount of low-level disagreement. But you're correct that my gripes aren't a big enough deal to me to get all bent out of shape over.

>Lack of Halloween forms isn't that big a deal. Handling it
>really poorly, and insulting your player base repeatedly in
>the process kind of is.

Without going back and reading all the responses, yeah, that could probably have been handled better. That's what you get when you have a bunch of rando volunteers interacting directly with end-users instead of professional customer service reps. I say that by way of explanation, not as an excuse.

>Yes. New gameplay content is required for a game like CF to
>thrive. Look at WoW, regularly releasing new expansions
>roughly every 2 years.

I mean, it certainly doesn't hurt. And there is always some of that happening in the form of new areas being added, new immortals appearing and disappearing, etc. I consider that new "content" even if it's not a mechanical change that necessitates new code. Honestly, for me to be happy, all it would really take is more players. That is, more people to kill and be killed by.

I already explained why this doesn't count. Playing the game may lessen the disconnect, but does not remove it, because playing staff are not in the same position as ordinary players and they never can be.

Because of what, game knowledge? That applies to like...three or four people, and at least two of them rarely play mortals anyway. Speaking only for myself, I actually know less about the game for having been on staff for a year, because I haven't been able to familiarize myself with any of the new areas that have gone in.

Because you will not be ruined by a surprise nerf. You are a witness and possibly participant to those mythical "discussions" that take place before nerfs happen. You are forewarned. Players are not.

More importantly, and as I already pointed out, as a developer your whole outlook changes. You cannot be attached to your character the way players are, because the character is not your only (and probably not even your primary) outlet into the world of CF, and not your only means of taking influence on that world.

Seriously, why do I have to repeat myself again? Playing a mort as a staff member is a different game psychologically, and you cannot experience the same worries that players have anymore -- at best, you can remember them from your non-staff days but most likely you will discard that as "foolish".

Come and play on occasion. At least you're not banned for advertising the game on r/MUD :)

I can only speak to my experience, so I will. I haven’t yet seen a single imm go out of their way to screw anybody over. I’ve seen (and had, myself) a few attempted fun/positive events not work out as planned and become a negative. That’s the nature of mistakes, it happens, and it definitely isn’t the majority and it definitely isn’t intentional. I’m a big fan of players, myself, despite having had a few be less than pleasant with me. But I’m also not interested in judging innocent people by the acts of the guilty, so I treat every character like a fresh start – nothing associated with them at all.

As to making things fun, we sure as hell are trying. But there also needs to be an understanding that imms in general have very little access in what they can do. Not everyone can touch code. Touching code is necessary to change a cabal, change a power, fix a bug, add a new leader position, etc. So we each do what we’re able to do, but that’s it. That consists of religion interactions, random interactions, events, etc. So hop on and join in!

As to finding someone motivated to code, I’m on board with that, assuming they’re willing to put in the standard investment. Everyone has had to do it. It’s not impossible. It’s not even that ‘hard’ (it’s more on the tedious side, if anything). If someone can’t commit to something like that, I would personally even fully refuse the idea of giving them full access to the game and it’s code. There isn’t an artificial roadblock for this any more than there is at any job where they want a certificate, degree, or whatever else to provide evidence of your dedication and safety. Anyone able to code has the full ability to plow through the heroimm process, whether they want to or not is something different. On a personal level, I'd be more partial to an unaffiliated paid coder than an affiliated volunteer who hasn't gone through the heroimm process.

I also love CF. I’ve put more time into this game than I have any other in my life (with the only long-lived playing competitor being Dwarf Fortress). I’m not particularly annoyed. I don’t feel jaded or cynical. So I’m not really sure what to do with that advice. I only do this because I want to and I’m having fun. Interacting with people is often the highlight of my gameplay day :D.

Only one thread was locked recently, and I believe (I could be wrong) thread locking used to be more common, which makes the criticism weird. Since it’s difficult to feel successful when taking a step in the right direction still gets you poked at – but I also fully know there is no way to please everybody. But again, all that said, it isn’t a recent pattern and if anything it has been towards the opposite and on a downward trend. So we are doing better?

I don’t think CF is on its deathbed, but I’ve also been called annoyingly optimistic. I used to put up fliers for CF around my highschool and college, and I still advertise it when I get the chance. I’ve also seen some new players pop in every so often. We even had a relatively recent period where player count was, every month, on the up bit by bit. So it’s possible! The biggest way to make that possible, though, is for people like you to play.

To end it on a playful joke: I play and I’m on a lot, so at least I know:



-Ish

Mistakes happen and they can even be fun, but I’m not talking about mistakes. I’m talking about animosity from the player base and a bad attitude from higher staff.

I got my sense from my time as a heroIMM that some up there get a certain amount of satisfaction by seeing players unhappy. It’s why I stopped logging in. I was having a blast working on my areas when I had time, but screw that noise.

As for coders there is a player who is willing, able, and available to code for CF but because CF requires some sort of exclusivity he’s not able to do it. Guys, it’s 2018. What person willing to code for CF these days isn’t an IMP on their own MUD with three occasional players? Relax this rule.

I did see a locked thread recently. I bring it up because it’s the ultimate F You to debate around here and I feel it should be off the table. Be happy people are posting about CF instead of playing Fortnite.

And yeah, buddy, CF is on its deathbed. But it can be saved.

I don’t see a lot of animosity.

I don’t really see satisfaction by seeing players unhappy (I don’t know when you heroimmed).

The coder can go through the heroimm process, it’s open and available. I’m not interested in making cf non-exclusive. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

The locked thread was the exception, not the rule, so I’d like to promote the idea of focusing on the positive trend.

I don’t think it’s on its deathbed. I’ve heard it before, then we started an upward trend. I think it can be done again :) .

-Ish

This is not about it.

Animosity is there. For real. You may not see it (which I find weird, knowing who you are), but it IS there.

A coder in question can't heroimm ever, because he's an IMP in another MUD. It was the same reason why Murphy was rejected, "You have another MUD, buzz off". Like WTF? It's a Russian language MUD that 3 blind people play.

Your attempt at whiteknighting is commendable, but the whole post isn't about you. It's about both mortals and (for the most part) high-ranked imms. Both groups you don't really belong to, being the member of the CF stratum that is universally liked (new crop of imms).

there are 2 or 3 capable and reputable to do it. and they WANT to do it

CF is in its glory when new things are added, bugs are fixed, and imms dungeon master


love you guys, much respect!

And the classic comments is that trust is earned. Even for
non-coders, it's part of the vetting and advancement process.
Access to the code is a bit of an additional jump. Not speaking
ill of anyone (I've been busy RL enough I vaguely remember the
comments towards interested parties, but not specifically who), but
it's part of the reason it's run through the Heroimm process.
There's character assessment that goes along with advancement.

All that said - I believe there's at least one current Immortal
taking steps to add coding to their repertoire. It's something I've
done in the past, and my background lends itself to picking it up,
but I purely haven't had the time to learn the language well enough.
I'm still hoping at some point I can devote the time to it.



That, or my backup plan is winning the lottery and paying Umiron to
do it full-time.

Anyone who doesn't have multiple years of programming in C, daily, with skin in the game (e.g. a paid job) should not be writing C. There are far too many gotchas and behavior left undefined by the spec to say things like "I've been working on picking it up".

On the other hand, if somebody can do substantial work on CF with a scripting language (e.g. lua) please go ahead. If not, well maybe existing coders should make it possible.

As for "trust issues", it's entirely retarded that people who have worked as software engineers at some of the best tech companies in the world offered to code for free, including giving their rights to the code away, including signing NDAs, including putting their reputations at stake, and been rejected. What's good enough for pretty much every company on earth, is not good enough for CF.

Another nail on the CF coffin.

It's also C from the 1980s designed to run on things considerably less powerful than a modern smartphone. The code is actually not that complicated. There are gotchas and other caveats to working in C, but the hardest part is that it is spaghetti code, not that it does things that are super complicated. You don't need to be a professional C programmer to make substantial changes.

Agreed on the not-good-enough for CF part though...

I compiled the old merc/rom, which CF is based on, in c++ compiler and it runs fine so no real reason it couldn't be in both c and c++.

As -fiso points out below these are people who work as software engineers and are used to intellectual property-rights waivers and NDAs.

Why are the standards of the industry not rigorous enough to volunteer for CF?

And honestly, what's the worst case scenario? Some nefarious party gets a hold of the code and leaks it or exploits the game to the point that it's unplayable?

That would be sad news for a few hundred people around the world. The loss of a favorite work of public art, let's say.

But CF was always a sand sculpture, it could never last forever.

What's disappointing to see is that the resuscitation it needs to last for a few more years is available, but prevented from being implemented for...reasons.

And yes, I do think that lack of an active coder is the biggest issue facing CF right now. It was code changes that drove much of the base away and it was lack of players that took most of the rest, or so it seems.

Give the reins to a trustworthy coder. They're here. Give us Santa Murph and see how many people return.

that's been working in the business has too much at risk to be loose with the code after signing an NDA.

Yes, I offered to code for CF before. For what it's worth I NEVER asked to bypass the heroimm process, it was more that the committee of immortals decided that I will not pass it and I should not be given an attempt (to save everyone's time).

Because they obviously know better than me whether I have the time and patience to do it.

There were also other concerns. Like, the fact that I am too vocal and angry on the forums. I do it because I care about the fate of CF, but hey, go ahead and chalk it off to just me being unstable.

Regardless, I thought it was pretty clear that my offer is long since retracted. I will not work for a police state.

I am the most farther apart from being a programmer as is possible.
I only took one class of java introduction and I barely passed.
So I am probably making a fool of myself by asking this.

But isn't it possible to compartmentalize (spelling?) the code?

Ie. I need would-be-coder to come up with code for the hamsah boats. So here you go, you get access to only this part of the whole code of the game that is necessary to touch to come up with the coding needs.

And then the imms take the coding provided and just test the hell out of it to make sure it fits properly?. Meaning have someone code it and another already super vetted imm just check it. Checking is faster than doing the coding yourself.

-Luis

Area scripting is easily done separately. The MUD kernel itself is too intertwined, so if you allow a person to change one of the files while not having the knowledge (preferably quite indepth) of the other files, he'll #### it up royally in no time.

See lag bug.

All you really need are the function definitions, which give you no insight into the mechanics of how a given skill works, in order to write code for CF. As an example, below is a quick reverse engineer of what the code for "jab" looks like on CF. If I had the real function definitions, I could make something that was valid CF code, without ever having access to the rest of the code. Depending on implementation, that's probably just a copy of merc.h, which usually includes (most) of the function defs and some constants.

I can't put the code directly in, apparently, so you'll have to view the attached file...

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/user_files/120.txt

I've studied the old leaked cf code indepth :)