Pulled a few comments from Dios to spark yet another discussion of assassins on this board too in hopes that someone upstairs keeps an open mind to it. I would add to the ongoing discussion that an argument against assassins being overpowered that I have often heard is "most assassins aren't deadly and don't do well at hero" to which I would respond that less competent players can make any powerful build (assassin with nage waza, STSF elf, giant flurry warrior, duergar warrior, 7 path invoker with all masteries, etc.) look terrible.

Anyone who can write a role, explore a little bit, and level to 51 can get Master of Nage Waza and Ground Fighter, and probably a few other edges. Master of Nage Waza is a ridiculous edge, for reasons that are pretty well documented.

Posts from Dios below:

(saagkri on one reason assassins feel OP - they just have an answer for EVERYTHING, which is in very stark contrast to pretty much every other hiding/ambush class such as thief, assassin, and situationally transmuter, orc, and Outlanders.)
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in CF memory except for old assassinate (no stalking just % chance success) and forced-dual. Sorry if any of this isn't 100% correct. I've played assassins before, but they need toning down IMHO.

- They can hide better than thieves so they can pick their battles
- Biggest maledicts, fastest application of maledicts
- Most damaging lag move which can also maledict
- Can slow you pre-combat (darts) and during combat (kansetsuwaza, which also maledicts)
- Can break your wrist obviously (kote)
- Can stalk to cut-off fleeing
- Can stalk to assassinate

- Then trance: Haste + 50% dam redux?
- Add to that a trance edge: +400hp? or 100% weapon mastery or etc.
- Can parry with hands
- Also, backfists
- And shield block (It costs 10 thief points to get that on a thief)
- Third attack
- Oh, and tiger claw (thieves earclap sucks and you have to be a thug to take it...and it's after third attack)
- vanish (not that big of a deal, but you sure can catch someone on eastern with it)
- Healing skill
- -save v spell skill
- 1 round lag attack (nerve. So you can go right into throw, etc.)
- Best edges in the game
- Mark (big deal if you know how to use it)
- pick lock (really? They need this?)
- I know I'm missing something

Assassins were coded by someone who like to play assassins. It would be one thing is a class could conceal/heal/melee/defend/get away/track but wasn't the best at anything. But that's not our current assassins.
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(laearrist on changes over the years that have led to assassins seeming pretty overpowered.)
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1) Martial Trance

Made Assassins way less squishy at hero. Now most only fight with it up.

2) Dex changes

Harder to beat in melee due to high dex and they can evade direct damage sometimes. Martial trance boosts this. Very hard to bash down tranced assassin, even if you can win the melee. They just don't get perma-lagged consistently

3) Throw + ground control edges

Throw now has 100% success rate. Ground control too? Maybe not, but very high. Both do more damage, and you get more consistent results from ground control. And free throws. And you can throw hand specs and other assassins.

4) No class XP penalty

Now your human/half-elf/half-drow assassin not only has all of the above working for them, but they're also a zero XP penalty stealth class able to easily pick on lower level characters. with 400 XP penalty, you have close to giant PK range. With zero, you are fighting giants 8 ranks below you. Now you get to dominate all through the ranks.

5) Martial Trance edges

Kind of doesn't matter which one, but the one that gives you 100% in all weapons means you no longer have to worry about axes or maces or whatever, which you already worried about less because of dam redux (due to MT) and dex changes (which made those easier to dodge), but now you also parry them like a champ (and can wield them to make your own attacks harder to parry) so you are near par with sword spec level defenses and you have bash + savage feeding. And stealth. And the best maledicts. And built in healing. And cure blind. And area blind/poison. And knockout. And... you get the idea.
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