Maximum Statistics: 23str, 16int, 18wis, 22dex, 22con, 17chr
Sp.Ability: Detect Hidden, Infravision
Vulnerable: Holy, Light
Resistance: Poison, Magic


Would like to hear the immortal take on this.

1) The stats are crazy. This is like the ideal warrior who can flurry, dodge and has more con than a giant more than twice his height. Does it make any kind of logical sense at all? Oh, and POISON and MAGIC resist?

(As for holy, there are ways around that. Avoid ONE class or engage when the odds are in your favour, which you can do since they can't hide from you. And there aren't that many marans about with searing light to make a sizeable disadvantage. As for weapon wraths, deal with it the same way elves deal with iron)

2) The ability to strike from the shadows of thieves and assassins are counterpointed by the fact that they are generally weak fighters, and that all alignments can play thieves and assassins.

Why do we have an evil race that can totally negate the good balance of thieves and assassins with Duergar anti-paladins, shamans and warriors? Do I need to say the word... AXE?

Given also that good base have only one maledicting class (which needs empowerment) while evil base has that + two other maledicting classes which don't need empowerment + have unholy weapon/lich options, don't you think having a detect hidden super warrior race is a bit of an overbalance? Then throw in the fact that the evil base has access to a cabal that is not dependent induction from leaders....

Let's not talk about what's in swing or what's not in swing, but game mechanics. With AP upgrade and paladin downgrade..

And I feared no Duergar
Infact Duergar trembled before my might
*And I didn't even spam wrath*

The race seems well balanced, a bit tough but overall well balanced

They aren't just weak to wrath
Low int/wis makes them weak to bards as well
And as a duergar I'd fear goody conji's too *not everyone uses archons at hero =P*

- (As for holy, there are ways around that. Avoid ONE class or engage when the odds are in your favour, which you can do since they can't hide from you. And there aren't that many marans about with searing light to make a sizeable disadvantage. As for weapon wraths, deal with it the same way elves deal with iron)

You're talking about avoiding one class that is always going to be looking for you. Good luck with that. You're also talking about two MAJOR vulnerabilities that can be exploited fairly often. Pretty balanced from what I've seen.

From reading your post I can see you haven't played evils much.

Paladins didn't just get downgraded, they got changed. Tell me when you are playing an ap or necro and a paladin manages to send the whole cursed group home that they got downgraded.

APs didn't really get upgraded. They just got more variety. Previously unholies other than axes just weren't worthwhile. Now they are viable. The new "ap spells/skills" are not new. They've just changed the way you get them. Previously it was by killing a load of people and taking their souls, and had nothing to do with level. Now it has a level based element and less of a soul based element, forcing ap's to rank up to benefit from them.

Duergar may have resistances, but they have low mental stats, which makes them vulnerable to things in other ways.

Most aps don't become powerhouses. Most necros don't become liches. Evils have more maladictors but goods have paladins.

You sound like you've only seen one side of the coin properly. Having played both sides and most cabals, I think it's fine.

Balance-wise, I'd place them near the middle of my personal list. I don't think they need much adjustment other than more RP background to work with.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>Balance-wise, I'd place them near the middle of my personal
>list. I don't think they need much adjustment other than more
>RP background to work with.
>
>valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I believe their big downside was poor stats.

Wrath and holy attacks tool duergars. One on one fights with a duergar, I almost always won if I had a wrath sword. I think the stats work out nicely. The Imms have done a good job on really balancing out each race.

You're bitching about one of the stupidest races in CF.

Do you realize what 16 int does to this race, since spam practice is mostly negated? This race is at 85 on defenses at 40 where most people have nearly or already perfected them.

The reason there's very few duergar that make it fully through to the hero range (without ganging/being a Rager) has alot to do with duergar having the "gank me" sign around it's neck.

Frankly, duergar have been, and always will be, a reasonable threat to hiding classes, and rightly so. If you really want to show duergar what's what though, just gang them with 4+ thieves/assassins.

I can't say much for the stats except they more than make up for the lack of int, provided you're willing to put up with the fact that many skills that you don't use much will remain sub-par most of your life, as will defenses if you don't grab a shield/sword and tank, and hog all the chances to tank until your HP is low. The other thing is, there's alot of skills that aren't skill % dependant. You obviously haven't tried to rank a duergar beyond 30 without grabbing Empire/Tribunal/Rager as a cabal. Trust me, it's tough. I've more patience to hero a non-offensive shifter than a duergar, and that's saying alot since I prefer melee classes.


Oh, there's always been equal/greater numbers of fire giants than duergar at all times of day, and usually the numbers of drow are just 6-10 below comparable to duergar. Oh, and duergar can't dual wield two handed axes, limiting their choices greatly. Ever had a non giant axe spec drooling over two handed limited axes in your inventory that are impossible to put to any efficient use?

I'm happy that paladins are the offensive powerhouses they're supposed to be, rather than sanc/heal bitches (even if they can't land kills very well at all), especially for mobs being killed by out of range lowbies. That's the healer's/transmuter's job. Even despite all this, a paladin is *still* better suited to protection than vanquishing, hence the code/below average ability to ensure a kill.