Look, I realize y'all imms have a problem with me because I want to do something you don't want me to do, but please read this and really examine what it is that you do here.

Torak came up with something really damn cool. As a fan of the game, he has spent time both playing your game and contributing to the community as a whole. In response to a really great idea that the playerbase would use and enjoy, one of the first things that come out from the staff is, "Well, it'll ruin the game because we (the staff) won't be able to police it."

I really feel like it's been this attitude that has held CF back. There has to come a point when you have to let the fans be responsible for themselves. If info gets out, it gets out. Yes, we know the imms opinion on these matters and we try our best to police ourselves to some degree. However, your Kafkaesque administration techniques have caused quite a few players to quit out of frustration over the years. If players are going to log on just to check if gear is in, then that's on them. You cannot control that and the existence of a new item list isn't going to change their behavior. It's not going to corrupt individuals who were previously uncorrupted.

Bottom line, Torak's item db is not going to ruin CF. Just trust that he's going to do an awesome job and, as he *already noted*, he's not going to be including area explore items and such. Stop trying to #### on yet another player's positive contributions and enthusiasm with your apocalyptic doomsaying.

Quite a few have joined, too.



A lot of us play for the surprise and secrecy element of the game, even if it is frustrating a times.

I have to agree with Nnae that some things are better left undone, or policed, for this type of game.

Even so, it is their game that they run for free and let us play for free. If they don't like one of our ideas, we can't really get mad at them.

Overall, the numbers are down, no? Used to be that you could log on a weeknight and find 60-80 people playing. I feel lucky if I see 30.

There are other MUDs out there which have found a balance between making new players feel welcome, appealing to the long-time players desire for new content, and maintained steady numbers throughout the years. That *isn't* CF, and that's okay, but I would be happier if it didn't feel like a slowly sinking vessel at times.

The thing I hate about this comment:
Even so, it is their game that they run for free and let us play for free. If they don't like one of our ideas, we can't really get mad at them.

...is that it's used as a sort-of end-all to the discussion. It's not. It's their game that we give them the privilege of our patronage for. Without us, the game is just a decrepit shell that years worth of work went into for nothing. Out of charity and gratitude, we give them money for it on a regular basis (PBF) because, well, if it wasn't free, no one would play. I love playing CF, but it wouldn't be the end of the world if it didn't exist tomorrow. I'd just move on to something else.

>Overall, the numbers are down, no? Used to be that you could
>log on a weeknight and find 60-80 people playing. I feel lucky
>if I see 30.

It's pretty standard for a poster to attribute all change in player numbers to whatever it is is pissing them off at the moment. I've never found it persuasive, especially since those arguments naturally contradict each other.

While any game enjoys having players, I think this privilege/patronage idea is where we see the fundamental disconnect in perspective between you and the game staff. What you seem to imply from that is that out of our gratefulness for your patronage we should view every player as a co-contributor to the trajectory and design of the game. Interestingly, this game has endured for over 17 years without having ever adopted that perspective. I think it is a better game for having listened to feedback without compromising design issues that have been considered core to the quality of the game. That we have ANY players 17 years later is a testament, I believe, to (primarily) good decision making.

Without us, the game is just a decrepit shell that years worth of work went into for nothing.

I strongly disagree with this. If the game were to be shut down tomorrow, I would not consider the years of work to have been for nothing.

>>What you seem to imply from that is that out of our gratefulness for your patronage we should view every player as a co-contributor to the trajectory and design of the game.<<

Sorry, what I meant to imply is that we have a symbiotic relationship. CF exists because players stick around over those 17 years. In a sense, every player is a co-contributor to the trajectory and design of the game, good and bad alike. While we may have some neat ideas from time to time, you usually end up changing the game when someone does something either really stellar or really ####ty you don't want imitated. I forget what the exact thing changed was, but didn't Ravon, just by playing the game, end up getting some mechanic changed? Wouldn't that make him a contributor? Wasn't necessarily that he abused a mechanic as took advantage of one that wasn't tested in every way possible. You *do* cater to us perhaps more than you realize, but not give in completely. That's a good thing. It's when we as the playerbase feel that you abuse the privilege of having us as guests (i.e. shady conspiracies usually involving Nep :) ) that you begin to lose us.

Last case in point, Scrimbul came and played CF and quit again. A large part of that was due to the current frustration with the tweaks made to the binder path thieves. Binders used to be one of the deadlier choices. He'll probably be back one day, but it won't be a constant character presence like it used to be. Not to suck up to that dude or anything, but it's just an example of losing a good, quality player because of the immstaff tweaking things and not telling anyone. There will probably be denial about this, but y'all haven't bothered updating the "Announcements" board in god knows how long.

Mostly, the things he was talking about weren't actually changed. :P

Wouldn't that make him a contributor?

No.

nt

Believe it or not. There was a time when zulg, nep, and twist were not the primary administrators of the game. It was actually not uncommon to see the actual rise of imms to take on new responsibility and the stepping down as other ones decided to move on to new things.


Over the last 4-5 years though that process has stopped. Well the part about imms moving on to new things hasn't stopped but the whole new ones stepping in to fill the void has.


I can't say why this trend is happening but there was turnover back then and there is not really today and I don't see any reason we should have that kind of stagnation when there does not appear to be a shortage of people who want to participate.

I think that you've either misread my post or perhaps I was unclear. What I said was that I like the idea. I didn't say it would ruin CF. I shared some concerns, to open up a dialogue and to perhaps point out some things that people might not know/think of. I find it strange that my response was read as negative, when, in fact, I was trying to be very positive and praise him for a good idea and for his work in getting it started.

Nae-nae

The guy's still carrying a chip on his shoulder from the last thread - you can see the mood is carrying over.

More people are becoming literate, but this larger number has a lesser grasp on what the words on the page they are reading mean as a whole unit. Arithmetic, basic algebraic relationships involving fractions, and geometric spatial reasoning are also suffering downward drifts in my area and possibly the whole country. It's a phenomenon I've been watching since my interests are in high school education and I still have dreams that they'll give me my license back next year. But also he could have been pre-empting a supposed response he was expecting to get, which is bad argument practice. But then it does get the issue out into the open, so maybe that's what he was trying to do.

But to address this poster's opinion, I can assure you that it has been the Imms imagined policy to do just what he is saying. You guys are the KGB up there behind the iron curtain doing who knows what and we're down here just playing in the sand. There comes a time when you have to realize that some policies need to change, real policies or imagined ones.

CF is in desperate need of a standard gear database (Which Torak obviously agrees with since he brought this up and made a skeletal app to demonstrate a solution) that also includes some mighty shiny #### from some of the rougher areas. It could be the carrot to get them into the area in the first place. I'm okay with area explore being totally off limits. If this is your main reason that you are imagining people have for go into an area, then I suggest making more areas area explore like mal-trakis and whistlewood and hardan wood and Dra'Melhkur since it would promote this type of behavior and also make the EQ off limits for discussion.

But for people like me, I've read every room description in the mud that doesn't involve the new areas, some places in hell, and a few rooms in the Octagonal Tower I haven't been in, and this "mystique" of finding out new stuff has faded on me. Quesnel was the last character of mine that I enjoyed this act of going in and reading all those room descriptions and finding all the little nooks and crannies and what mob had this and that. Quesnel deleted in 2002.

So the Imms really need to jump on this and create a playerbase friendly policy that is intended to help Old Fogies like me who can't remember where the #### that silver bracelet with the +2 dam and the -3 svs vs spells comes from anymore, and newbies who wouldn't know good gear if a the hero fortie goose took an eq #### on them. This app is probably going to come out whether you like it or not.

That's my opinion on it. Hope it helps.

nt