As we all know, the different paths of thieves have been reviewed and changed as needs arise and I think a serious look needs to be taken to the 'push' thief. Now I'm not looking for anything drastic but let's look at some things.

Grapple - it's a free hit which is the same thing an orc gets, but they at least get savage feeding. Don't you think a thief would have some more finesse so they don't get hit trying at least, but hit when successful? Pretty risky if it fails which happens quite a bit.

Separate - alright, it's the trap thieves isolate but why can't it work on solo people. Sure it's meant to separate people, but most people will just walk right in and join in. Yes, there are times this isn't possible, but I think this should be more like a super push on one person into another room.

Death strike and strike of the abandoned - alright, no offense, but this skill which a thug thief waits for is quite the joke. It's a normal hit, if that, that continues the fight if someone flees or dies. Don't you think it should have some sort of side effect or at least do more damage or multiple hits? The times they come up which are extremely rare, it can't be used like other skills, and should have a huge benefit which in reality it's nothing at all. I think the same thing was said about Mercy the Typhoon since it seems to have the same effect - or lack of.

Earclap - The deafen for a short time is their finally ability, but can be stopped by the right headgear (least I think so). Now, I can see a use or two for this in the right situation but maybe bring the damage above a mutilate - you'd think it'd stun or do bleeding or something. Yes, I know, you're going to ask how can I bitch about a deafen ability but it's quite risky for a thief to go barehanded for such an attempt.

Parting block and cheap shot is pretty much the only reason people even take this path, and the abilities of this thief don't even compare with a trap/poison/thiefy style thief in "coolness" factors (yes, I just said coolness factors). I guess the reason I bring this up, is the abilities above cheap shot and parting block aren't just...well encouraging to take. Sure if you gear like crazy and catch people so you can trip them to death, you'll win a fight or two but anyone that gets to parting block can do the same thing. Strike on the abandoned, death strike, earclap, seperate and grapple just don't seem like they match up. Could someone at least look at these and compare and see if they match up?

Sure, when I played my trap thieves, everyone said they were overpowered and people started playing them. Same for poison thieves, since they have some real nasty tricks that are just being shown. Binder thiefs...eh, well, if you got friends they're nasty but besides that not really since the bindings fail a lot and they can be broken easily. Galadon thieves have got steal down good which is really nice also, but thug thiefs...how many have been played that went past parting block? Not very man and you don't see them stick around much - just trying to spread the loving and try and shed some like on at least strikeabandon/deathstrike ineffectiveness for how often they get used and maybe think about some tweaks to separate/grapple/earclap.

Beast

As much as I hate to say so, he sort of has a point. On the surface, the later thug skills don't seem nearly as attractive as the earlier ones. If I went thug I'd either stop at cheapshot, parting block, or *maybe* third attack. And I'd have a hard time rationalizing spending that many more points in thug just to get third attack.

But, maybe this is okay. In the same way that some specs, focii, etc. aren't for everyone, maybe a full-path thug isn't for everyone either.

Thanks for actually responding.

Beast

I think there should always be some value to completely
going down one thief path, especially since in doing so
you sacrifice some versatility.

nt

"Oh, man. If I saw that (post) running around in my backyard, I'd get out the compound bow."

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Wow, and I thought we'd never get ranged weapons!

An intelligent post and a smart reply instead of having anything decent to say - thought you were beyond that. It's not like I'm bitching here, just pointing some things out. If everyone remembers their history lesson well, when I played a trap thief that class had a list of like 40 bugs that got changed because of me - hell they didn't even receive the right skills and the strength of them was completely off scale. Now tell me how many thug thieves do you see past parting block? Maybe 2-3 tops ever that I can think of or search for. Just trying to take an eye to maybe some problems and why they aren't popular.

That's right Valg, I challenge you to actually look at it :)

Beast

Cheers.
Jhyrb.

I did really bad for awhile until they figured I had MVP and the medicine they were giving me was acting up my heart. I'm fine now, and just can't have certain medicines/drugs/etc.

I'm here and playing CF, why is everyone obsessed with my past.

Beast

Because some people are still in disbelief that the Imms actually let you play again. It's beyond my comprehension, at least.

But then, I personally have a regrettable habit of holding grudges for years and years that is not representative of team immstaff as a whole.

Ever see those highlight plays where the second baseman is backpedaling, and the center fielder and right fielder are coming in, and they stop 5 feet short and the ball falls in between all three? Yeah, like that.

FNCR, indeed, Mr. Shokai.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Call this a horrid oversight, so bad this post could've almost been made on the bug board. We've fixed it, since there are some people, much like the undead Aether who wore out their welcomes long ago.

Much like a hefty bag full of vegetable soup hitting the pavement from a distant height, his time playing CF has come to a messy end.

Disclaimer : It's a bit long, but I would really appreciate if you read this.

I've been playing for quite awhile, and it wasn't a "horrid oversight" that I slipped in to play CF. Actually some high level Imms and I talked a bit and the ban was removed. Yeah, that's right - removed. I've played Wakachacha, Beast Garguza, Reverend Jesop and countless other contributing characters since then and done nothing illegal in any shape, way or form.. The other imms decided to let it go, but it seems you missed the boat and just have to keep this grudge Shokai and Valguarnera. I'm really curious why you just can't let it go - I said I was sorry and moved on, hell I've even helped with more cheaters, bugs and input more than you probably know. What, my post about a balance issue gets me banned? Can't handle some constructive critism, you just want this board filled with bitching and rants while you come up with your creative ways to insult people? It's obvious my post had some merit, I wasn't offensive, mocking, or doing anything to harm the flow of the game - hell, I was trying to be helpful.

Maybe you should have a talk with the high level imms/imps that removed the ban, or you can keep it up - not a huge deal right now, I've got midterms/finals coming up and could use the break. It's truly sad that you can't move past this and have to continue this. The others have let it go - how about you try and be forgiving instead of a smite-happy god on a pedestal. Did I do something to personally affend you directly that you have to keep up with this?

Well I've said my beef, keep chewing your biterness if you so desire. Once again I'm sorry you fail to see what I've contributed and that I came back apologizing - have a heart. And sheesh, it took you that long? Each one of my last characters mentioned I was Aether and a lot of people said some nice things about my changing behaviour. I had APOLOGIES in each character's goodbye practically - you missed all that, and all the comments made by others about me? Even the people who initially entered in the ban have talked with me and moved on....*sigh* why is it everyone must hold onto this big mistake.

Beast aka Aether

> Well I've said my beef, keep chewing your biterness if you
>so desire. Once again I'm sorry you fail to see what I've
>contributed and that I came back apologizing - have a heart.
>And sheesh, it took you that long? Each one of my last
>characters mentioned I was Aether and a lot of people said
>some nice things about my changing behaviour. I had APOLOGIES
>in each character's goodbye practically - you missed all that,
>and all the comments made by others about me? Even the people
>who initially entered in the ban have talked with me and moved
>on....*sigh* why is it everyone must hold onto this big
>mistake.

I imagine it was because you went beyond mistake into outright damage mode and obnoxiousness in general. Fair enough you apologised for being a total toe-rag and they may well accept that. It does not mean that for the safety/benefit of the game they must let you back in.

Bruce McCulloch's cancer apology monologue was all for not. :(

A couple nights ago, I was at the local YMCA, and on one of their many little mounted TVs, they were showing stuff about the old Jeffrey Dahmer trial on Court TV or something. At the end of it, old J.D. reads this whole statement to the victims families about how he knows he has done wrong and while he can't bring everyone present's loved ones back, he's sorry.

It's like this. While, as far as I know, you have never butchered or eaten other people's children, as far as the limited scope of our little game of fantasy and imagination goes, you've come about as close as you can. And, much as one of the angst-ridden mothers in that trial started screaming "I'll kill you, you ####er! I'll kill you!" rather than accept the apology, so too will we metaphorically scream* obscenities at you rather than "just get over it."

I probably wouldn't kick you in the junk if I saw you on the street**, but you done pissed in my sandbox once, and I don't trust you to play in it anymore.

*the screaming is metaphorical. The obscenities will be genuine.

**though Vegas refuses to give odds on this.

Just a guess, it could be an attitude thing. The tone of that post was amazingly accusatory, self-righteous and smug.

> I've been playing for quite awhile, and it wasn't a "horrid
>oversight" that I slipped in to play CF. Actually some high
>level Imms and I talked a bit and the ban was removed. Yeah,
>that's right - removed.

Translation: "I'm right - you're wrong. Yeah, that's right." Has it occurred to you that Shokai and Valguarnera may have spoken to those same nebulous high-level imms and said imms reconsidered? Or maybe they decided to lift the ban without consulting whoever instituted it in the first place? I guess they would check stuff like that out before making a claim that something went "horribly wrong".

>I'm really curious why you just can't let it go -
>I said I was sorry and moved on, hell I've even helped with
>more cheaters, bugs and input more than you probably know.

I think that, despite an apology and three characters who haven't misbehaved, they consider you an unacceptable risk. What happens if they have to bust you for something again? Will you flip out like you did last time? You say you won't, but if we're going on sheer probability then someone who's done it once is probably more likely to be the kind of person who'd do it twice.

>What, my post about a balance issue gets me banned?

I think it just brought it to their attention that you were playing again. Not the content of the post, per se.

> Maybe you should have a talk with the high level imms/imps
>that removed the ban, or you can keep it up - not a huge deal
>right now, I've got midterms/finals coming up and could use
>the break.

Sour grapes always help make one's point.

>It's truly sad that you can't move past this and
>have to continue this. The others have let it go - how about
>you try and be forgiving instead of a smite-happy god on a
>pedestal. Did I do something to personally affend you directly
>that you have to keep up with this?

This is another discussion tactic that tends to irritate people - patronization. The "concerned lament" that someone else can't see things the way you do.

I think it just brought it to their attention that you were playing again. Not the content of the post, per se.

This is accurate. I don't really keep track of who is what alias, and I don't read every post. It wasn't until the attention-begging and self-congratulations started up that I put two and two together.

We looked for this at a point in the summer, but Aether wasn't present at that time. Slipped below the radar for a bit.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

There's a small number of people that have anything to say about bans. I put up a question this summer (after Garguza, and before you went on a small break), and no one said anything about lifting your ban.

So I looked around, got five opinions, and they ranged from "Go For It." to less printable versions of "Why is he even playing? No one consulted me."

Isildur's correct. You can't repair what you did. Some areas still aren't open. Some quests still aren't redesigned. I know I've spent a lot of time coordinating workarounds for the damage you did, and it pales in comparison to what some others had to do.

Your permanent ban is just that.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Answer his ####ing post. It had good points.

Unless the helpfiles are wrong, he's wrong about some of the thief skills:

Grapple - it's a free hit which is the same thing an orc gets, but they at least get savage feeding. Don't you think a thief would have some more finesse so they don't get hit trying at least, but hit when successful? Pretty risky if it fails which happens quite a bit.

- according to the helpfile, doesn't this leave their weapon in your hand? That's not the same as orc grapple. The fact you can combine it with a more unexpected attack makes it more powerful.

Separate - alright, it's the trap thieves isolate but why can't it work on solo people. Sure it's meant to separate people, but most people will just walk right in and join in. Yes, there are times this isn't possible, but I think this should be more like a super push on one person into another room.

- haven't you seen how powerful this skill is for walking people into traps? Someone used it to take out groups of three.

Death strike and strike of the abandoned - alright, no offense, but this skill which a thug thief waits for is quite the joke. It's a normal hit, if that, that continues the fight if someone flees or dies.

- is it a normal hit? I've seen one in a log where it is a damn powerful hit.

Don't you think it should have some sort of side effect or at least do more damage or multiple hits? The times they come up which are extremely rare, it can't be used like other skills, and should have a huge benefit which in reality it's nothing at all.

- Agreed it will be fairly rare. That does make it a fairly weak skill imho.

I think the same thing was said about Mercy the Typhoon since it seems to have the same effect - or lack of.

- mercy might have other uses, but agreed, the one I saw seemed quite weak.

Earclap - The deafen for a short time is their finally ability, but can be stopped by the right headgear (least I think so). Now, I can see a use or two for this in the right situation but maybe bring the damage above a mutilate - you'd think it'd stun or do bleeding or something. Yes, I know, you're going to ask how can I bitch about a deafen ability but it's quite risky for a thief to go barehanded for such an attempt.

- It's not that risky for a thief to go barehand against a solo mage. Against a group, maybe, but against a solitary mage who doesn't have an army of necros?

Parting block and cheap shot is pretty much the only reason people even take this path, and the abilities of this thief don't even compare with a trap/poison/thiefy style thief in "coolness" factors (yes, I just said coolness factors). I guess the reason I bring this up, is the abilities above cheap shot and parting block aren't just...well encouraging to take. Sure if you gear like crazy and catch people so you can trip them to death, you'll win a fight or two but anyone that gets to parting block can do the same thing. Strike on the abandoned, death strike, earclap, seperate and grapple just don't seem like they match up. Could someone at least look at these and compare and see if they match up?

- I agree on this. I'd move things like cheapshot up the list so that specialists get it. I'd move things like strike on the abandoned, etc down the list. I'd keep separate, grapple, and earclap where they are.

Sure, when I played my trap thieves, everyone said they were overpowered and people started playing them.

- can I point out that they were bugged when you played one? I was playing one already at that stage. When you played one, if I'm not mistaken, weapontrip took all their moves. That's overpowered. You make it sound like it was your uber-skill that was causing the problems.

Same for poison thieves, since they have some real nasty tricks that are just being shown.

- and again, these are bugs and oversights. Making guildmasters move so that you can get into a guild is one thing. Making them move so that they stop people fleeing when they are not near their guilds is a bug.

> Binder thiefs...eh, well, if you got friends they're nasty but besides that not really since the bindings fail a lot and they can be broken easily.

- I'd make untieing level dependent, so a lowbie basically has v little chance of untieing a high level thief's knots.

Galadon thieves have got steal down good which is really nice also, but thug thiefs...how many have been played that went past parting block? Not very man and you don't see them stick around much - just trying to spread the loving and try and shed some like on at least strikeabandon/deathstrike ineffectiveness for how often they get used and maybe think about some tweaks to separate/grapple/earclap.

- I agree on this. I think if cheapshot was moved up the list, more people would make thuggish thieves.


Beast

Answer his ####ing post. It had good points.

I guess I don't agree. It sounded like a "gimme more power" whine to me, but what do I know.

The major reason I didn't reply to his post in the first place is because I don't really have deep familiarity with the thief class. You're free to write "Hey, Valg! Answer this post!" after every post on the board, but I'm free to not care.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com