Ok, I understand the reasons behind you guys changing some of the quests, or just nerfing them entirely. I'm all for making people figure things out for themselves IC. However, don't you think when you nerf a quest, you ought to remove all the stuff involving said quest?

We have all kinds of quests in CF. Some useful, others still just fun or RP related. Great. But when you nuke a quest, and don't remove all the stuff involved in the quest, we can have everything from a wasted hour or more of my time, up to and including death because a quest was removed and noone bothered to say anything. When the sa'angreals were removed a whole lot of people died, for doing something in a quest CORRECTLY. Doesn't that seem a bit ####ty to you?

I spent the better part of an hour the other night in the underdark, doing a quest to obtain a certain item. This was a quest I had done plenty of times before. Every step of the way I checked my progress and rechecked the items needed to be sure the things for the quest hadn't been changed, reread the little notes that are supposed to clue you in, and at the end I was left with a bunch of junk, a character another hour older and a bitter taste in my mouth, again for doing everything corectly.

If you guys are going to continue nuking quests, how about taking out all the stuff involved, so people will know not to bother wasting their time and effort? It just doesn't seem right that you do everything correctly in a quest, and get left with nothing to show for it but frustration.

I have actually written (on paper) an area with some questy stuff in that I hope to be able to use if/when I ever imm.

I think (though I could be wrong) that passing these quests around ooc channels would backfire in most cases. If I've got my designs right, they couldn't be exploited effectively.

We use a couple tricks here and there, but if you'd be interesting in sharing your ideas (you needn't include the specifics of your quest ideas if you don't want, but I'm not going to hijack them), we're always looking for fresh perspectives on design. Shoot me an email if you want.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Another option would be to code a 'quest maker' for the simple quests anyway. Now I'm not a serious coder, so I wouldn't know if it's that easy, but whatever. Just put in a random mobs name and the item to be delivered and you're set.

And a third option would be.. #### quest rewards. Give quest points instead. You can buy #### from the inn with those or whatever.

>Ok, I understand the reasons behind you guys changing some of
>the quests, or just nerfing them entirely. I'm all for making
>people figure things out for themselves IC. However, don't you
>think when you nerf a quest, you ought to remove all the stuff
>involving said quest?
>
>We have all kinds of quests in CF. Some useful, others still
>just fun or RP related. Great. But when you nuke a quest, and
>don't remove all the stuff involved in the quest, we can have
>everything from a wasted hour or more of my time, up to and
>including death because a quest was removed and noone bothered
>to say anything. When the sa'angreals were removed a whole lot
>of people died, for doing something in a quest CORRECTLY.
>Doesn't that seem a bit ####ty to you?

About as crappy as posting the detailed walkthrough of a quest.

> I spent the better part of an hour the other night in the
>underdark, doing a quest to obtain a certain item. This was a
>quest I had done plenty of times before. Every step of the way
>I checked my progress and rechecked the items needed to be
>sure the things for the quest hadn't been changed, reread the
>little notes that are supposed to clue you in, and at the end
>I was left with a bunch of junk, a character another hour
>older and a bitter taste in my mouth, again for doing
>everything corectly.

No idea what quest you're talking about, but if it's the one I'm thinking about...nothing has changed with that quest.

>If you guys are going to continue nuking quests, how about
>taking out all the stuff involved, so people will know not to
>bother wasting their time and effort? It just doesn't seem
>right that you do everything correctly in a quest, and get
>left with nothing to show for it but frustration.

You'll notice that new quests don't come around much at all anymore. Nor do quest areas. It's a battle we're tired of fighting. The quests that do come around don't have super-cool rewards like some of the older quests did for the same reason. I wouldn't be surprised if all explore areas eventually turned out to be "invite only" areas like Hell is now.

Send me an email with the quest in question, and I'll go double-check it.

>About as crappy as posting the detailed walkthrough of a
>quest.

I agree with this. But on the other hand, the ones most punished by this are the ones who don't get told by their OOC circle of friends and contacts "Hey they changed so and so quest, don't bother with it or it'll kill you/waste your time". It's the people who go and DO the quest and then discover now a pot of gold, but a chamberpot at the end of the rainbow.


>No idea what quest you're talking about, but if it's the one
>I'm thinking about...nothing has changed with that quest.
>

I'll do another run through and log it this time for you.


>You'll notice that new quests don't come around much at all
>anymore. Nor do quest areas. It's a battle we're tired of
>fighting. The quests that do come around don't have
>super-cool rewards like some of the older quests did for the
>same reason. I wouldn't be surprised if all explore areas
>eventually turned out to be "invite only" areas like Hell is
>now.

This would really be suckful.

>Send me an email with the quest in question, and I'll go
>double-check it.
>

Will do.

Can't we just ban anyone with a Russian or Australian IP from doing quests and going to quest areas? I'm getting sick of being slapped because some other guy in the bar grabbed CF's ass.

>About as crappy as posting the detailed walkthrough of a
>quest.

True...
However, if you pretend to be better,
the tactic has to be changed, perhaps?

Witch-hunting isn't very constructive
because even if 99% of players are loyal,
there always be an idiot who does ####.

there always be an idiot who does ####.

Should be amended to:

there always be an idiot who does ####. Well, until CF's coders spend so much time fixing quests because TeamRussia/TeamIRC(*)/etc. keep posting everything they get their hands on, that they say 'This isn't interesting.' and pull plugs on quests/areas/etc. permanently, leaving you with an utterly worthless collection of facts.

Just keep pretending the problem is on the Immortal side of things, Rooqweaz. Frankly, I think "invite-only" is pretty generous compared to just pulling the areas in question.

(*) Oh, I forgot. People use IRC to socialize, not to cheat. I mean, the subject line in a well-known IRC room is never a link to a post full of quest solutions or anything. Because that would be blatant cheating sanctioned by the people running the room, and Leud told us that doesn't happen.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Yeah, people use AIM just to socialize and not cheat, too. People use ICQ just to socialize and not cheat, too. People use the telephone just to socialize and not cheat, too.

Is there cheating in IRC? Likely. Does EVERYONE in the room do it? No. It is an inherent trait in society that there will be some people who will do anything to stay ahead. Simple as that. That doesn't make it right or justified, but there it is.

A hispanic person insulted me and did some damage to my property. Now, I hate and continually badmouth all hispanic people.

Doesn't that seem wrong in some way?

A more fitting example is....

"7 of those 10 inmates at the penitentiary have either tried to rape me in the poop-shoot, or made their intention to do so clear. So, even though I can't effectively shut off all contact with those ten inmates, I will try my damnedest not to let any of those 10 get behind me."

Does that seem wrong?

The majority of those people in the particular IRC site that the Imm was alluding to, are there to gain any kind of info about playing cf that can make their cf'ing more "successful".

The rest, willingly choose to associate themselves with the above group.

Is it unfair to lump the "rest" in with those who go there to cheat?

Yes.

Unlike your hispanic example (people don't choose to be hispanic), everyone CHOOSES to go to that IRC room and associate with more than a handful of those people that AREN'T innocent.

Like it or not, I believe it JUST to treat people according to the company they choose to keep.

If you don't think you are a racist, but all of your friends happen to be clan members.....I do not think it is absurd for someone looking at you and your friends to lump you in as a racist.




"Death awaits ya all, wit nasteh big pointeh teeth!"

You choose to play Carrion Fields. There are people who cheat on Carrion Fields. You are therefore a cheater.

Let's see if even YOU can see the difference between these two statements.


I play a game, a game where a small percentage of the players are cheaters, thus I am a cheater.

Or....

I socialize in an internet chat room, a chat room where a very large percentage of the people are there to cheat, thus it is fair for those who do not like cheaters to be somewhat distrustful of my protestations of innocence.

If you see no difference. I pity your parents.



"Death awaits ya all, wit nasteh big pointeh teeth!"

I just find it puzzling that you would lump people together like that, judging a person by the company they keep.

It seems that there are many who agree with you. So be it.

I think that each person should be judged on their own merit, regardless of the actions of their associates.

Which statement is more logical.

(The argument you just used, which has nothing to do with my argument)
Out of all of the people that you know or have contact with, there are two or three liars, thus you are a liar.

(The argument I used, which has nothing to do with your argument that you used to discredit my argument)
Out of all of the people in your city, all of the friends that you have chosen are members of the KKK, thus there is a high probability that you have some sort of race-issues.


Which of those two statements sounds logical?

Do they use the same logic? If one of them is illogical, does that mean the other is illogical, as your post seemed to imply?




"Death awaits ya all, wit nasteh big pointeh teeth!"

Unfortunately (and trust me, I hate this) I somewhat agree with Vladimir.


I Know, understand, and agree with the reasoning behind the removal of quests.

That said, I think that if the Imms are going to remove quests (again, their prerogative) they should REMOVE the quest.....instead of leaving the whole quest in and just nuking the end result.


Sure, changing the end result of a known quest to a death-trap might be satisfying when the first two or three cheaters get caught (before they spread the word to stop).

But, shortly, the only people dying are newbies who have worked hard to move point by point through the quest, thinking that they are having fun....

The only thing that that accomplishes is to condition newbies to keep brief on, and to stop looking for little extras like that. Because I guarantee you, after falling for that death trap, the next time they come upon a quest they will more likely want to just ignore it.




"Death awaits ya all, wit nasteh big pointeh teeth!"

Perhaps some of the new that have read all the post about how to become powerful you must cheat and be on a irc room. And thus they go there and hope the will get info. And sure cf is discussed there but not another way than dios, quest areas and quests are a no no for example.

And sure cf is discussed there but not another way than dios, quest areas and quests are a no no for example.

That is a blatant lie. If the subject line of a room is a link to quest solutions, it's not a "no no". It's not moderated responsibly, no rules are enforced, and it does real damage to the game. Type it all you want, but I've seen enough logs to know it's all #### rationalization.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Ok. So what about some random guy making a char on CF, posting a link to every quest in the game on the newbie chan, then shouting that same link all over Galadon/Whatever. Where's the moderation my rock n roll friend?

.

I will give you this, I had no idea that Arolin(I think it was again) had done a new page, but what I've heard it was pretty old info?

Anyway, I never saw it in the dangeroom so I doubt it stayed topic for very long and yes anyone can set a topic in the room and Leud is not there all the time.

And I'm only telling you what I've seen, and Arolins first page I got to know through him yelling in Galadon I think it was. So sometimes you cannot prevent it...

But I'm not speaking for Leud and the others but I know he would have no problem with imms being in the dangeroom as they used to be, be there with false name or whatever then and see for yourself.

we come to said irc room to hear when Leud talks about his new char and then find the corpse of it within a half-hour and ask him about, where he retorts with a load of curses...

.

>Should be amended to:
>
>there always be an idiot who does ####. Well, until CF's
>coders spend so much time fixing quests because
>TeamRussia/TeamIRC(*)/etc. keep posting everything they get
>their hands on, that they say 'This isn't interesting.' and
>pull plugs on quests/areas/etc. permanently, leaving you with
>an utterly worthless collection of facts.

First of all, I don't defend those who posts quests' walkthrough.
And I believe I haven't done this.
My post was aimed to immortal reaction.

"Someone does #### to us, so we are gonna do #### to the rest of playerbase"
This attitude is not constructive.
( It may be satisfaction though )
When it is decided by immstaff to remove a quest,
why just don't remove it?
And perhaps made it public : "this quest is removed".
What is the point to put a death_trap at the end of this quest
other than exploding your frustration on a playerbase?
Sure it may harm cheaters who use these walkthroughs,
but it also can harm innocent players,
who correctly solved a quest IC, as much, or even more.

Also, a direct reason for removing a quest is a fact
it became very public.
Why it happens? One of reasons is a ####head posted its walkthrough.
Another reason, people just explore.
The more time pass, the more people know the quest.
Eventually it becomes public anyway.

What is the solution?
There are several:
- change a quest every time it becomes well known.
( may be annoying to coders )
- make its reward "not overpowered".
( personally I would like it )
- disable a quest
( hardcore solution :) )
- whatever else.


>Just keep pretending the problem is on the Immortal side of
>things, Rooqweaz.

Keep pretending the problem is on the player side only.

> Frankly, I think "invite-only" is pretty
>generous compared to just pulling the areas in question.

Invite-only areas is a possible solution.
But to me is seems to be OOC'sh.
When it possible I would like to have free accessible areas.

>(*) Oh, I forgot. People use IRC to socialize, not to cheat.

Hrm, it is 2003.
Be realistic. You can't expect that people will not
interact at all and will not discuss CF's events
among themselves.
The perfect playerbase of fully isolated persons who
has only a telnet conneciton to CF doesn't exits
and never will.
Keep pretending IRC is the root of all problems.

>Another reason, people just explore.
>The more time pass, the more people know the quest.
>Eventually it becomes public anyway.

Eventually it becomes public anyway? What the #### are you talking about. Nothing becomes "public" just because ten different people do a quest.

>What is the solution?
>There are several:
>- change a quest every time it becomes well known.
>( may be annoying to coders )

This has already stopped happening.

>- make its reward "not overpowered".
>( personally I would like it )

So then everyone gets this not overpowered reward...then bitch and moan because they think they are entitled to it. Perfect example...travelling boots.

>- disable a quest
>( hardcore solution :) )

Which is likely what will continue to happen. It's the simplest solution.

>>Just keep pretending the problem is on the Immortal side of
>>things, Rooqweaz.
>
>Keep pretending the problem is on the player side only.

Uhm...again...what the #### are you talking about. We write them...we put them out there...we want them to be enjoyed by people who like puzzles, not by some #### who was told step-by-step how to do it. This is why they get yanked instead of changed.

>Eventually it becomes public anyway? What the #### are you talking about. Nothing becomes "public" just because ten different people do a quest.

Thats right, it becomes public in certain circles only so we can ignore that but some quests actually spread IC too.


>What is the solution?
>There are several:
>- change a quest every time it becomes well known.
>( may be annoying to coders )

>This has already stopped happening.

Well sure I can see imms being bitter about their quests being posted, but there must be so many quests left thats never been posted.

>- make its reward "not overpowered".
>( personally I would like it )

>So then everyone gets this not overpowered reward...then bitch and moan because they think they are entitled to it. Perfect example...travelling boots.

But you yourself(imms not your personally) say that it is only a small minority of the players that usually whine, and that is true. Sure you can be bitter about it, I know I sure would be but many of the quests adds quite alot to the area and cf as a whole.

>- disable a quest
>( hardcore solution :) )

>Which is likely what will continue to happen. It's the simplest solution.

Sure, one some cases I can see it would be the only solution, but sometimes it hurts the game alot. And yes I realise I cannot order you to work 10 hours to rewrite a quest because some moron posted it, but those posts rarely happen not publicly, it is only small cheating groups I would imagine who continue to spread this info.


>Uhm...again...what the #### are you talking about. We write them...we put them out there...we want them to be enjoyed by people who like puzzles, not by some #### who was told step-by-step how to do it. This is why they get yanked instead of changed.

I love when I manage to solve a quest, my first large high level quest I solved was amazing. Spend hours doing it, sure it would have been much more sad if I had used some guide, but even more sad would be if it did not exist at all. People should not be afraid to speak with the imms about quests just because some morons posted a guide to some of them, I like a discussion but sometimes it feels like I'm to blame because the quests are disappearing when I discuss.

Anyway, good luck with your little child and hopefully you dont take this the wrong way.

And yes I realise I cannot order you to work 10 hours to rewrite a quest because some moron posted it, but those posts rarely happen not publicly, it is only small cheating groups I would imagine who continue to spread this info.

This is incorrect. A sizable percentage of our quests have been posted at one time or another. 10 hours is a low-end estimate for quests of middling complexity, by the way. You're downplaying the amount of effort that it takes to get one planned, written, tested, and implemented.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

It was a estimate and well I dont have an idea really, so I did not try to sound like you did less work than you do.

And well I've seen two quests posted but that does not say much as I've not seen much of the cheating I guess.

Speaking of puzzles, I've always found it funny how you're supposed to do certain quests when there's a dude with an AK waiting to #### you up. What's up with that?

>>Another reason, people just explore.
>>The more time pass, the more people know the quest.
>>Eventually it becomes public anyway.
>
>Eventually it becomes public anyway? What the #### are you
>talking about. Nothing becomes "public" just because ten
>different people do a quest.

When ten different people out of eleven do a quest,
I call it public knowledge.
I'm not sure what do you mean under public.


>>What is the solution?
>>There are several:
>>- change a quest every time it becomes well known.
>>( may be annoying to coders )
>
>This has already stopped happening.

I noticed.
However in some cases it is possible
to code automatic mutations to quests.

>>- make its reward "not overpowered".
>>( personally I would like it )
>
>So then everyone gets this not overpowered reward...then bitch
>and moan because they think they are entitled to it. Perfect
>example...travelling boots.

There are possibilities to make a reward worthy
according to efforts of an explorer.
For example, even if you know everything about Hell,
it is still not easy to gather a group,
bug an immortal for invitation, and succesfully finish
a trip. So a reward could be somewhat powerful.
It is not like yo are going to do it more than 1-3 times
in a character's life.
Another example, sa'angreal. Let's admit everybody know
how to get it, however it still requires some work
and a reward is not extremely powerful either.

Also there are people who don't know this or that quest,
and they could still enjoy first-time exploring.

>Uhm...again...what the #### are you talking about. We write
>them...we put them out there...we want them to be enjoyed by
>people who like puzzles, not by some #### who was told
>step-by-step how to do it. This is why they get yanked
>instead of changed.

Who get yanked?
To me it seems that is people who like puzzles get yanked.
While you can effectively yank only first of cheaters,
the rest will be warned.
As I got yanked by a certain quest in white tower not a long time ago
because I solved it in game,
while I could just ask somebody and get a warning
about that trap.

#dangeroom have always been a "free" room and well Arolin came in and did set the topic and sure no one bothered to change it. But it was pretty well spread at that time, sure it was fault but it is not like Leud asked for super info so he could spread it on his cheating channel.

Extremely little cheating goes on in dangeroom actually, there were other much heaver pure cheating channels. And of course icq aim and so on that is much worse in my experience.

So yes, you can say that cfers who like to talk to other cfers about cf and other things are more likely to cheat than the one that never visits forums or knows anyone that plays cf. But so much of that talk is good for cf, I know I would probably have become bored years ago if I never spoke about cf with my friends.

And sometimes there is anal players who posts solutions and I know some are spreading them to their friends(and belive me those never appear on "public" places like dangeroom until someone freaks out, ie arolin.)

But those are pretty hated by the player base too, you only hear the "former cheaters" and you pretty much think they should shut up because of old sins. But if you remove or make them invite only alot of what is cf will disappear as it becomes such a project just to go to an explore area.

So dont spit on the dangeroom just because it is an irc channel like ruscf(atleast used to be)or the other cheating channels.

But those are pretty hated by the player base too, you only hear the "former cheaters" and you pretty much think they should shut up because of old sins. But if you remove or make them invite only alot of what is cf will disappear as it becomes such a project just to go to an explore area.

Boo hoo. You'd have to think for yourself. Cry me a river.

And sometimes there is anal players who posts solutions and I know some are spreading them to their friends(and belive me those never appear on "public" places like dangeroom until someone freaks out, ie arolin.)

As far as blaming Arolin, one incident I'm referring to is recent, didn't involve an Aussie to my knowledge, and stayed up for a while despite how obviously against our rules it is. So I don't feel bad at all for calling the people who maintain the channel cheating ####s, and you won't see any apologies from me. It does real damage to the game, and don't come here and cry to us when quests or areas get pulled because of it.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>But those are pretty hated by the player base too, you only hear the "former cheaters" and you pretty much think they should shut up because of old sins. But if you remove or make them invite only alot of what is cf will disappear as it becomes such a project just to go to an explore area.

>Boo hoo. You'd have to think for yourself. Cry me a river.

Ok, I will cry you a river then.

1. Most of my playing time happens around late morning, european time. That would be around 4-5 in the morning game time.

2. Most of the quest area writers seems inactive and I dont know how eager others is to let me and my group into their area.

3. I would really really think it over before going into a quest area because belive it or not I dont want to waste imm time. It has happened that I've gone alone or taken with me a friend or two(Yes, ic friends belive it or not) and failed miserabely, may it be no idea how to figure out a quest to get past the very beginning(silent) or just dying fast as hell(silent). That in my opinion would be a pretty disrespectful to the imms that have probably decided to be on just to let me enter their area.

4. I would never enter a explore area without a guy that knows it as a leader, because the time would be so valuable that I dont have the time to just #### around. It's not like the sanctioned trips to hell have been much other than, get me the regen rings and some other neat stuff.

>As far as blaming Arolin, one incident I'm referring to is recent, didn't involve an Aussie to my knowledge, and stayed up for a while despite how obviously against our rules it is. So I don't feel bad at all for calling the people who maintain the channel cheating ####s, and you won't see any apologies from me. It does real damage to the game, and don't come here and cry to us when quests or areas get pulled because of it.

Not aware of the incident and I'm sure there are cheaters in #dangeroom but I dont think Leud is one. Except for the odd perma ranking group here and there.



And no Valg I dont hate the imms or you, belive it or not. This is no damn war between players and imms and you dont need to hate and insult the players for trying to find solutions to the problem.

>4. I would never enter a explore area without a guy that knows
>it as a leader, because the time would be so valuable that I
>dont have the time to just #### around.

That's so goddamned lame it makes my kidneys hurt. I would never want to go to an explore area with an experienced leader, unless he's going to keep his mouth shut except when we're all about to get killed for sure. Why would you want to go to an explore area, where the whole point is to solve quests, face challenges and *explore* if you have someone who takes all of that away? if you just want to see a quest solved, and a challenged faced, go read a book. The point of quests in CF is that you get to solve the quest, not read about it being solved in your presence.

>Not aware of the incident and I'm sure there are cheaters in
>#dangeroom but I dont think Leud is one. Except for the odd
>perma ranking group here and there.

The place is a horrid pit of cheating. Leud does cheat, he's admits to doing things that are cheating, he just won't admit they're cheating, or plays it off as not mattering because it's not Really Serious Cheating.

>And no Valg I dont hate the imms or you, belive it or not.
>This is no damn war between players and imms and you dont need
>to hate and insult the players for trying to find solutions to
>the problem.

This thread doesn't look like players problem-solving. It looks like people whining and crying because they have a sense of entitlement to quests they solved with other characters (and I bet a few of the people here just want their OOC quest info sharing to work better).

It's ridiculous to say you're getting screwed because the quest you've always done doesn't give you the same reward anymore. And the newbies/first time quest explorers aren't the ones who are going to be getting killed, because they'll be going more slowly and paying attention to what's going on.

Re: guilt by association:
In a perfect world, everyone is evaluated indiviudally. But since real life people can't possibly do that, they have to make best guesses. Best guess is that if you frequent the library, you're someone who reads. If you frequent IRC, best guess is that you're a cheater.
It might not be true, but it would be pretty stupid to guess that the guy who visits the library every monday doesn't read, even if you never actually catch him with a book.

Bottom line: The imms make this game, and are within their rights in doing whatever they want (with the game) to protect their time/energy/emotional investment.

>>Not aware of the incident and I'm sure there are cheaters in
>>#dangeroom but I dont think Leud is one. Except for the odd
>>perma ranking group here and there.
>
>The place is a horrid pit of cheating. Leud does cheat, he's
>admits to doing things that are cheating, he just won't admit
>they're cheating, or plays it off as not mattering because
>it's not Really Serious Cheating.

AIM is a horrid pit of cheating too. No one really seems to complain about this. I guess IRC is a convenient scapegoat, especially if you have AIM, ICQ, MSN, etc. on your computer.

Do you? Well then it's just as likely you cheat as anyone else. At least that's my "best guess."

>>And no Valg I dont hate the imms or you, belive it or not.
>>This is no damn war between players and imms and you dont
>need
>>to hate and insult the players for trying to find solutions
>to
>>the problem.
>
>This thread doesn't look like players problem-solving. It
>looks like people whining and crying because they have a sense
>of entitlement to quests they solved with other characters
>(and I bet a few of the people here just want their OOC quest
>info sharing to work better).

Yes, it does. Personally, I don't really care about quests all that much. I do one quest as a lowbie and that's it. If it went away, well then I'll dog the 5k EXP another way. It is sad that these things get posted. It doesn't ruin my fun, but it ruins the fun of other people and that does detract from the game.

What I am complaining about is you and others setting judgement on people who may not even be deserving of it.

>It's ridiculous to say you're getting screwed because the
>quest you've always done doesn't give you the same reward
>anymore. And the newbies/first time quest explorers aren't
>the ones who are going to be getting killed, because they'll
>be going more slowly and paying attention to what's going on.

If a former quest is now a deathtrap then good. That makes me laugh. I also liked it when the Galadon guard commander went on rampages killing people. Call me sadistic.

>Re: guilt by association:
>In a perfect world, everyone is evaluated indiviudally. But
>since real life people can't possibly do that, they have to
>make best guesses. Best guess is that if you frequent the
>library, you're someone who reads. If you frequent IRC, best
>guess is that you're a cheater.

In some cases, your best guess is wrong. Do you take that into account? It's one thing to disbelieve what someone tells you, but it's another to stick your nose up in the air and not listen at all.

>It might not be true, but it would be pretty stupid to guess
>that the guy who visits the library every monday doesn't read,
>even if you never actually catch him with a book.
>
>Bottom line: The imms make this game, and are within their
>rights in doing whatever they want (with the game) to protect
>their time/energy/emotional investment.

I agree.

>AIM is a horrid pit of cheating too. No one really seems to
>complain about this. I guess IRC is a convenient scapegoat,
>especially if you have AIM, ICQ, MSN, etc. on your computer.

Aim could very well be an HPoC. I wouldn't say IRC is as much a convenient scapegoat, as it is a convenient gloss for "Ways people get together to cheat"

>Do you? Well then it's just as likely you cheat as anyone
>else. At least that's my "best guess."

I have IRC on my computer too, and occasionally use it. But I don't go into CF channels. Having an IRC client isn't what we're talking about. When people say IRC, they mean one or two particular channels that have a proven trackrecord of condoning cheating. They just say IRC instead of naming the channels. No such thing exists for AIM, so it's hard to use it the same way.

>What I am complaining about is you and others setting
>judgement on people who may not even be deserving of it.

Well, I agree that's unfortunate, but that's how all of life works because humans aren't omniscient.

>In some cases, your best guess is wrong. Do you take that
>into account? It's one thing to disbelieve what someone tells
>you, but it's another to stick your nose up in the air and not
>listen at all.

Yeah, it matters that there are innocents. If it didn't, the imms might just go on IRC, /whois everyone and then ban their IPs from the mud.

>>AIM is a horrid pit of cheating too. No one really seems
>to
>>complain about this. I guess IRC is a convenient scapegoat,
>>especially if you have AIM, ICQ, MSN, etc. on your computer.
>
>Aim could very well be an HPoC. I wouldn't say IRC is as much
>a convenient scapegoat, as it is a convenient gloss for "Ways
>people get together to cheat"
>
>>Do you? Well then it's just as likely you cheat as anyone
>>else. At least that's my "best guess."
>
>I have IRC on my computer too, and occasionally use it. But I
>don't go into CF channels. Having an IRC client isn't what
>we're talking about. When people say IRC, they mean one or
>two particular channels that have a proven trackrecord of
>condoning cheating. They just say IRC instead of naming the
>channels. No such thing exists for AIM, so it's hard to use
>it the same way.
>

There are no established chatrooms on AIM for Carrionfields, so it's hard to use it in the same way. Er, you can make your own chatroom and invite your buddies into it on AIM. I guess this would be even better, because the AIM chatroom is invite-only.

Also, PM'ing someone on IRC = PM'ing someone on AIM.

It's sad that #dangeroom seems to be the scapegoat in this case. AIM is just as "bad", if not worse because its rooms are exclusive.

Leud is the sole moderator for DR as of this moment. Someone posted a link to a quest site as topic. He cannot be on call 24/7 to police the place.

On the same note...

The IMMs are the moderators of Carrion Fields. Someone logged on a newb and posted a link to a quest page on the NEWBIE channel for Godsakes, not to mention yelling it across Galadon. They can't be on call 24/7 to police the place either.

Mudslinging in either direction is all rocks and glass houses.

>That's so goddamned lame it makes my kidneys hurt. I would never want to go to an explore area with an experienced leader, unless he's going to keep his mouth shut except when we're all about to get killed for sure. Why would you want to go to an explore area, where the whole point is to solve quests, face challenges and *explore* if you have someone who takes all of that away? if you just want to see a quest solved, and a challenged faced, go read a book. The point of quests in CF is that you get to solve the quest, not read about it being solved in your presence.

I have pretty much never been "dragged around" by a experience leader before, but I'm honest enough to say that to go to an area explore I would.

I spend around 5 hours in the first circle before I figured out the way down to second. Now, lets say I did not know that now and wanted to explore then let me take you through the steps.

1. Try to cordinate together a group and an imm that can let me in, that wont take time at all, especially if you are not a well known character.

2. Now, going to hell. Spending around 5 hours figuring it out, and around 2 more so it can work for all. Yay, that is way past any length of time I can play in a row. I do most of my exploring alone because then I can leave when I want(and due to different things I have pretty chaotic playing times).

I love explore areas and I love playing strong characters that can explore parts of it alone, all that would disappear if all was made invite only.

>Bottom line: The imms make this game, and are within their rights in doing whatever they want (with the game) to protect their time/energy/emotional investment.

Yes, but insulting players and telling them that they should stop cheating is pretty pointless when the one who made the cheating page is banned since long time ago.

Yes, but insulting players and telling them that they should stop cheating is pretty pointless when the one who made the cheating page is banned since long time ago.

We've had multiple incidents. One in particular quite recent. I know this because when something like this goes up, I'm on the list of people that can fix, remove, or alter things. How do you know what does and doesn't happen?

I'm not insulting players at random. But if you have the balls to come here and pretend that cheating isn't rampant on IRC, when I've got plenty of logs saying otherwise... yeah, I'll paint a bullseye on you. You've earned it.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Cheating is rampant on irc, but I would say it is not on dangeroom. Perhaps through private messages and such, but those can just as well happen on icq, aim and so on.

I'm on the dangeroom pretty much daily and have missed all those new sites, so chances are that they have just been up for mostly a day on the topic until someone changed it. And not one knew about the page when I asked about it.

I dont cheat, I talk about my character in the room while he is still active sure. But that is not cheating in my opinion. Sometimes when someone else have said that they play an enemy I can discuss a funny fight with him, but it's not like I send him messages telling him to log of because now I will raid with a whole gang.

And what I have heard, quests and quest areas are no no in the dangeroom. Atleast I've never seen a answer to any of the newbies who come in and have high hopes of joining the "L33t cheating ring".

I've been in #DANGEROOM for an awful long time now.

Nobody helps anyone with anything. Because everyone in there is a bunch of jackasses. People post stats for items sometimes, if you're lucky.

Nobody helps with quests, because it's a lot more fun to mock the person trying to figure it out.

Nobody gives out prep info, because we're all sick of having our sources changed.

The main cheating that goes on is pre-arranging ranking groups, because (and maybe I'm going too far here) we all think ranking is a chore, and it goes WAY FASTER with competent people.

I mean honestly, when's the last time someone in #DANGEROOM had a char of any significance on this mud? It's like accusing a cripple of cheating because he uses crutches.

The main cheating that goes on is pre-arranging ranking groups, because (and maybe I'm going too far here) we all think ranking is a chore, and it goes WAY FASTER with competent people.

Well, between that and the logs I've read, I'm glad we agree.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

That goes on yep, not as much let us roll a perma but more "anyone have something evil around 20?"

And yes that is cheating, but that is not the same cheating as quest info. :-)

And not everyone in the room does that, I think it is a smaller part of the dangeroom that does that. So just because you are on irc does not mean you are there to cheat. I guess thats my main point, because I've found every damn prep I use myself and I'm proud of the quests I figured out(And yes they are few, but still)

Oh well, good luck with catching the cheaters, and please dont become to bitter with all this ####.

that for a new player, such as myself, who has never had any clue how to do any of the quests (except the academy one), it would be a total waste of my time to even try to do one and might even end up getting my character killed? What's the point in that? I was actually going to try to figure one of them out, but I don't know if I should even bother now.

If I'm reading these posts right, the quests are now designed to punish cheaters, instead of rewarding newer players who figure them out and solve them? In that case, why have them at all? But removing them or making them invite only is also very unfair to newer players. That isn't much of an incentive for new players to stay and enjoy CF. It just seems to me that quests SHOULD be designed to make the game fun, not to punish cheaters and discourage new players from even attempting to do them.

I understand that the Imms go to great lengths to write a quest, code it, and make it enjoyable for the playerbase. It DOES ruin it to have someone spread around a walkthrough. But you know what? I didn't even know there WAS a walkthrough, until I read this. I'll bet you big bucks there are lots of players who didn't know that and who wouldn't take advantage of it even if they could. So what's the big deal? Those who cheat miss out on the fun of figuring it out for themselves, which ultimately is the whole reason for playing in the first place. Nuking the quests because of those who cheat, doesn't really punish the cheaters at all, but it does help to ruin the game for the rest of us.

Smile - It can't hurt and might help. :)

I was wondering the other day why I never saw items any more. I was going to try the quest for them any day now and see if they were still around. I guess it's a good thing I didn't.

I was wondering the other day why I never saw items any more.

Largely because people don't respect our requests to not discuss these things outside of the game. Is it so ####ing hard not to?

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>I was wondering the other day why I never saw items
>any more.
>
>Largely because people don't respect our requests to not
>discuss these things outside of the game. Is it so ####ing
>hard not to?

When I said it, I was under the impression that the quest was gone, or I wouldn't have even said the name of the item. I don't normally mention quests unless I don't know they're quests or believe the information isn't relevant any longer. I wish more people would follow suit.

(then again, other than the one I was referring to, there's only one other quest that I was once given the answer to. I'm guessing there's at least 5-10 quests around that I've never even heard of, and another 5 I've run across and never finished properly)

So, even if a quest is gone or inactive, it's best to keep quiet about it? I didn't realize that, and I'll be sure to remember.