**DISCLAIMER: I've only been playing like 2 months and never played D&D, MUD's or read more than one Dragon Lance book. So if there are reasons for the way Orcs are the way they are right now, just let me know

I've rolled a couple char's and tried to find one that I enjoy/have the ability to RP with and can still handle myself in a PK environment. So far I've had a Giant War, H-Elf Ranger and Orc-Bers. Out of the three I liked the Orc the best..HOWEVER his skills and stats we're sad..let me just point out a couple things and let me know what you think if you would:

1) Stats:

for a 100 penalty your H-elf war gets a bonus in a prime stat (str for here), move quiet in natural, str: herculean , int:

super-gen, wis: sagacious, Dex: Quick Con: Healthy

for the orc:
same 100 penalty, str: herc, int: avg, wis: avg, dex: dextrous, con:Vig ..ouch..makes sense but maybe a lil stronger?

2) skills not making sense / need tweaking

keep in mind your taking 3 pr's to train anything here and not getting very many each level..i think 2?
anyway:

a) more than likely your not dodging much with your orc (I assume you want to be heavy to bash?) but you still dont get parry until level 13? two ranks after your in PK range?? dodge at 18??

b)now orcs I know fight a lot amongst each other but they are supposed to group together (hence the exp bonus when grouped
and because everyone wants to kill them so its "safe" to group with other orcs) so you get steal but can only steal from other orcs? lol..i mean i understand that they probaly would see why orcs would..but limiting that to only orcs kinda makes it useless..theres not many orcs to group with, (I cant remember how many times I was asked to group and then just killed by other players) so when you finally get a group of orcs you gotta worry about them stealing things from you?

c)My last one to keep this post kinda short..Orcs are cowardly they auto-flee, you would guess they would learn to hide at an early age..so why they dont learn to hide until level 37 (only in swamps and caves makes sense to me) i have no idea.

So in conclusion..i really enjoy playing orcs, i like the fact that they are not warriors and should not play as warriors but in a MUD where PK'ing is a major factor I think they need a lil bit of tweaking, but still they're skills are fun to use and aide me when I RP. However if they're a clan ,with clan talk, I dont see why there would be no initiatives to make this race/class combo more playable and an actual force in game. The only suggestion I would have is to make some of their skills available at a younger age.

if you read all of this ..wow
if you comment ..wow and keep in mind the disclaimer

-Ins

By coincidence I touched on the topic of orc hide too.

By and large Orc Berserk is my favorite race/class, but I really need to be in the mood to play one well. I feel they are perfect for RP and damn good at PK. I agree there are some things that can be tweeked, but I've noticed orcs have gotten a LOT of love, so I generally just cross my fingers and enjoy what little perks I get as I get them.

DISCLAMER: People accuse me of not knowing anything at all and I've been playing for years.

Home B-4 Christmas

>keep in mind your taking 3 pr's to train anything here and not
>getting very many each level..i think 2?

Since I'm to blame for Orcs, I should mention that I've thought about this some on and off. My first thought when considering the "dumber" races of CF has to do with revamping the skills list entirely. Yeah. Basically every skill would have a primary and secondary stat associated with it. For example, Bash might be associated with STR (how hard you can hit) and DEX (being able to deftly choose a target). Something like Pen might be associated with INT and DEX. Anyway, after making all these associations, the efficacy of any PRACTICE session would be determined by your primary and secondary stats associated with the skill being practiced. Let's face it, an Orc is probably going to learn something like Bash easier than a Human Mage would; instinctively he would be better and intelligence doesn't really have a whole lot to do with it. All in all that would really help out the low intelligence races in the realm of combat-skills where most of them are supposed to excel anyway. However, that's a lot of work for a (possibly) small pay-off.

So another idea was to allow Orcs to practice up higher than 75% in a skill. Using that third practice just to get to 75% is a little brutal. So what if their torturous training procedures allowed them to get a little further? Another staff member pointed out that if Orcs could do that, why couldn't a dedicated warrior do the same. Well, alright. So that one's out.

Personally I'd like to see the first idea implemented some day. But I don't envy the coder that has to do it...

see that would make sense for every class, but I'd feel bad for the coder as well ;)

Sucking down a McFalafel and fries inspired one other possible idea. Racial modifications to skill practices. It could be that Giants get a +10% per practice of Pincer or Elves a -5% per practice of Bash (I know the mere mention of a degredation of practicing is causing gastrointestinal trembling for some). It would be simpler than the giant matrix of skill vs stats first proposed and could balance out the low intelligence races some.

>Sucking down a McFalafel and fries inspired one other
>possible idea. Racial modifications to skill practices. It
>could be that Giants get a +10% per practice of Pincer
>or Elves a -5% per practice of Bash (I know the mere

I like the general idea, but wouldn't applying it to specs mean that certain races are almost always specced in the weapon they get a bonus to? Above and beyond the truism that all giants are axe or mace specs, which isn't actually true, doesn't it seem that if you give people more insentive to go with the traditional combos it'll become incredibly rare to see exceptions? Maybe this is desirable, I dunno, but I like the fact that there are stereotypes, but also a lot of exceptions.

I have had orcs that have learned exceedingly well. It has even been commented by other players who were reading my posts.

I know PK helps, but It seems that my orcs learned well all the way around.

I always assumed it was because I tend to run with other orcs and keep our moral high.

Just read you were sick, always knew that, but I'm glad you're better. ;)

How about: each class has associated with it a set of stats which are combined to achieve the current effect of wisdom and a different set of stats which are combined to achieve the current effect of intelligence, for the purpose of practices and learning.

Then, for skills which are shared common to a number of classes tie them to a particular class. For example, sword is a warrior skill, pen is a bard skill. For these skills, use a ratio to determine the benefit of practices (warrior practicing pen gets his practice benefit multiplied by his "bard wisdom" and "bard intelligence" and divided by his "warrior wisdom" and "warrior intelligence").

This should achieve something similar to what you were proposing, but I think it's a lot simpler: Instead of coming up with stats for each skill, you're coming up with stats for each class, and classes for each skill.

The only suggestion I would have is to make some of their skills available at a younger age.

I don't think orcs are weak in the lower ranks at all. I've seen a number that could clean up on almost anyone. Parry at 13 and Dodge at 18 is plenty good considering the other offensive options you have early. Orcs aren't really about defense. The more effective ones I've seen used their miscellaneous utility skills to set up situations where they could throw a lot of hurt quickly.

As for your argument about stats, I'd take a hypothetical orc warrior over a half-elven warrior 10 times out of 10. Being bigger and stronger matters a lot for physical combat classes.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I'd take a hypothetical orc warrior over a half-elven warrior 10 times out of 10. Being bigger and stronger matters a lot for physical combat classes.


berserker vs warrior, or are you trying to give orcs some gossip mill type material?

Nope.

Just wanted to compare apples vs. apples as much as possible. Specifically, that orcs are much better suited for a fighting class than a half-elf in my opinion, without going into the specific ability sets of the two classes. Hence 'hypothetical'.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

i think an added problem is this (lets just keep a range from 1 - Pk)

You start with 5 PR's (if i remember right) and accumulate 2 per level gain.

My Orc has a total of 25 pr's

now it takes 3 to fully learn anything so if we take an avg. route:
Axe
Enhanced Damage
Dirt
Kick
Trip
Berserk
Cheap Shot
Second Attack
-------------
24 Pr's - 1 wep skill, 5 offensive skills, 1 Empower

My H-Elf (using war skills here)
learned in two, gained three gives me a total of 35 PR's
Axe
Sword
Parry
Enhanced Damage
Shield Block
Dirt
Second Attack
Fast Healing
Kick
Disarm
------------
20 Pr's - 2 Wep skills to learn (gets more parry options), 4 Offensive Skills, 3 Defensive, 1 Heal and a stat train, with 5 pr's left for higher levels

Both seem about accurate though for an orc and a warrior..I just really think some kind of tweaking needs to be done here..somewhere..

and a H-elf war can be equally as strong as the Orc right out of the box, the Orc just has an advantage in size..so im not sure I'd go with the Orc 10 out of 10 times at lower levels ;)

-Ins

*goes to roll another orc*

1) You don't need to practice everything to 75% as an orc. Especially abilities like the ones listed that you are going to be using constantly (automatic skills especially), or not often (kick, which I would skip entirely).

2) Orcs are stronger than half-elves, warrior or not. Once you get a character to level 20, you can see finer distinctions. And for a physical combat oriented class, every point of strength (and unit of size) matters- you'll hit harder and more often, it expands your weapon selection, and a large number of your skills will key off strength and size. This sort of thing is much more important than the difference in skill percentages.

3) Of course practicing as an orc is harder. They're big, strong, and healthy. They have a low XP penalty. You have to pay somewhere for all of that, and part of that payment comes in the brains department.

4) Orcs can roll very desirable statistics, and thus the gain command can end up dealing with the practice session difference also.

5) I might be wrong. If playing a half-elf warrior is the end-all-be-all of mid-rank destruction dealing, by all means feel free to play that character and demonstrate this. It's definitely not something you can write on a chart and prove.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>5) I might be wrong. If playing a half-elf warrior is the
>end-all-be-all of mid-rank destruction dealing, by all means
>feel free to play that character and demonstrate this. It's
>definitely not something you can write on a chart and prove.
>
>valguarnera@carrionfields.com

points one through four are good

number 5..you went a little overboard ..had your medication yet?

*hint*
"end all be all of mid rank..blahblah (i never said anything close to that)

Ok, I'm currently enjoying my orc. This is what it looks like
for me and basically has the entire time, after PK range.
Stats maxed, and all the 75%'s were from actually practices
not usage. I agree some things might need to be tweaked with
orcs but not this. As you can see I'm not a number cruncher
and I'm happy with my skills and look what I was able to
achieve.


<100%hp 100%m 100%mv 3857tnl> p
charge                   1%(  1%) axe                     
85%( 85%)
dagger                  75%( 75%) flail                   
75%( 75%) 
mace                    83%( 83%) polearm                 
78%( 78%) 
spear                   78%( 78%) sword                   
79%( 79%) 
whip                    75%( 75%) bash                    
78%( 78%) 
berserk                 78%( 78%) dirt kicking            
76%( 76%) 
dodge                   76%( 76%) enhanced damage         
86%( 86%) 
hand to hand            79%( 79%) kick                    
82%( 82%) 
parry                   77%( 77%) trip                    
81%( 81%) 
second attack           78%( 78%) third attack            
76%( 76%) 
shield cleave           75%( 75%) fast healing            
75%( 75%) 
recall                 100%(100%) butcher                 
76%( 76%) 
warcry                  82%( 82%) dual wield              
82%( 82%) 
headbutt                75%( 75%) cheap shot              
78%( 78%) 
pen                      1%(  1%) exsanguinate            
78%( 78%) 
fallback                75%( 75%) forced march            
80%( 80%) 
You have 5 practice sessions left.

<100%hp 100%m 100%mv 3857tnl> sc
Squirrel the Torcher of Shrines
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Level    : 22           Sex      : male         Race     : orc
        
Ethos    : Chaotic      Align    : Evil         Class    :
berserker   
Practices: 5            Trains   : 0            Hometown :
Grinning Skull Village
Exp      : 106863       To Level : 3857         Sphere   :
Rage
Age      : young, 17 years old (15 hours)
Hit Point: 100%         Mana     : 100%         Move     :
100%
Str      : 23(23)       Int      : 15(15)       Wis      :
16(16)
Dex      : 18(18)       Con      : 24(24)       Chr      :
10(13)
Carry #  :  17/31       Weight   : 261 lb 6 oz (Max 455 lbs)
Gold     : 0            Silver   : 1            Copper   : 8  
        
Wimpy    : 50%          Morale   : High         Position :
Standing
Hitroll  : 16           Damroll  : 19          
AC pierce: Well armored               AC bash  : Very well
armored          
AC slash : Well armored               AC magic : Somewhat
armored           
vs Spell : Barely protected    vs Paralysis    : Barely
protected    
vs Breath: Barely protected    vs Petrification: Not protected
      
You are affected by:
Skill: 'exsanguinate' for 5 hours.
--------------------------------------------------------------

squirrel

yeah i believe your right, I rolled a new orc and the
practices seem to be working out fairly well,...chalk up my
problem with it to inexperience.  But I dunno some abilities
like hide gotta be available younger..i mean they are
cowardly? wouldnt they be good at hiding? and if we can only
steal from other orcs..lowering that might be playing through
the orcs more fun

you cant recall home ..someone could be waiting for you
there..if you teleport you should be able to hide

dunno

Orcs, right out of the box, also generally don't need any further training. Halfies and such do. Those gain reverts can make up for a lot of orc stupidity. I've honestly never once had issues with getting orcs skills up. *shrug*

That's what I was getting at in #4, and I agree it's a significant mitigating factor.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I read your post 4 times and didn't notice that any of them. Christ, the doctor needs to back off on my pain meds.