Thu Jan 20 15:03:36 2005

At 11 o'clock PM, Day of the Bull, 15th of the Month of the Dragon
on the Theran calendar Kelin perished, never to return.

Race:	storm
Class:	warrior
Level:	51
Alignment:	Good
Ethos:	Orderly
Cabal:	FORTRESS, the Fortress of Light
Age:	604
Hours:	661

You were tough. Not many warriors could fight me far from a healer and send me packin...more than once. You also know how to raid, which is annoying in a Maran. And you weren't a martyr, which is also annoying in a Maran.

Muuloc

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=4&topic_id=14606&mesg_id=14606&listing_type=search

Whoopies.

Nope - Kelin wasnt played by me, at least not Kelin the warrion.. :D

Kelin the shaman was however.. ;)

Good char...always had nice things to steal.


Even if you expected me to be your ally instead of steal from you.


See you in the fields.


Desmonn

Well... Game is over for me.

Kelin was a very fun char.
I've met so many people over the course of my life. Explored a lot. Fought a lot. Learned a lot.

Now it is over. And I am not sure what to say at this point.
Other than I've enjoyed it immensely.

Person who really stood out: Androkin.
I enjoyed both our travels and conversations. Very well done.
Shot me an email to jogolev@yahoo.com if you are willing.

Arch-enemy: Hylondin
Basically cant do a thing to harm him.
Insane dam_resistance and crazy damage.
Only sore pill was - when I was lagging badly and was trying to get out of certain area and quit - he asked me where I was. I told him I cant fight him right now because my mind was slow and was trying to leave.
Of cause he came and ganged me. Puck you!!! :-(

Second ran-up as an arch-enemy: Calheil
Blackjacking person and leaving him unable to do anything for 30 ticks is just brutal. Hated you with passion.

Most worthless person I've met : Khalo
Choosing race for stats, none-existant RP, only playing to boost up your ego/pk ratio. Bah.

Fortress: Looks like it is on the roll again. Good. For a while I was only person around. Good luck everybody.

Varios enemies: Nice fighting you. Aside from gangs.

Everybody esle: Write me note/email what you think and I will reply.

Signing off,

Kelin, Niolas, Yshish, Astilamos, Yilish and many other chars.

I was kinda worried there for a little bit =P
Enjoyed our fights though your combo is like the rock vs scissors thing against me...
I would have liked to talk to you more though you seemed almost completly unintrested in actually any sort of lengthy talks
I liked Kelin in a annoying Maran sorta way,
You had guts and where willing to fight me alone *EVEN though* I managed to escape you guys 90% of the time.
PS, Do what you want man I'm not going to hold you to a IC deal, though an amusing idea =D

See you in the fields

Your talks were mostly 'Bah. You won because of your boots.' or 'Bah. You are worthless.'
IC you were very insulting. So I just quit trying to speak to you.

I dont know why you say I had any advantage over you.
We were very much alike.

We both were sword specs.
I had maran protection, you had rager resist.
You had healing, I had my potions.
On the top of this you had warcry/flurry thing.
And I picked ####ty legacies.

Your talks were mostly 'Bah. You won because of your boots.' or 'Bah. You are worthless.'
IC you were very insulting. So I just quit trying to speak to you.

I dont know why you say I had any advantage over you.
We were very much alike.

We both were sword specs.
I had maran protection, you had rager resist.
You had healing, I had my potions.
On the top of this you had warcry/flurry thing.
And I picked ####ty legacies.

Giant warrior *With the right specs/legs* = Dead Iborenn
*shrug* And had you talked to me perhaps you would have realized I was ALWAYS insulting...
PS, it wasn't Boots, it was Amathyar the dark-elf killing sword of lameness

Old...oh so old. Like i said before I friggin remember you getting in with Gaf...which was ages ago.

I liked you with Shisi, and you were always a welcome sight during that Fortress downtime. Now I would venture to say we've got too much quantity, and with you gone, that much less quality.

Even though we both knew you were old, I still think you had rights to be leader over me(and you woulda stuck around longer) but such is life.

Fun with the next and all that, hope I can run into one of your characters once I start playing again.

I really enjoyed being with Shisi.
It was visible it was your first invoker but you've learned.
Advance for you: Never pick affinity over 8. Not worth it.

At first I was a little bit upset about leadership but when I realised I did NOT want to be a leader. I liked managing things from the side.

So latter on when Fortress needed to fill positions I used my influence to put certain people in leader's seats.

When you were around, you were a beast. However, you weren't around nearly as much as I would have liked.

I knew Kelin with several characters, starting way back with Celebrimbor. As a Squire I took you aside once, and told you I was going to remove you for not being around enough, and you swore to change it. That was the last time I saw you with that character. If I had seen you on again, I'd have booted you on sight, since at the time we weren't ALLOWED to have more squires, and you were taking up space.

Then I knew Kelin with several other characters since, both Fortress and non Fortress. Even in the times when you were on, you were frequently far off somewhere where you couldn't hear the cabal channel, or recieve tells. If I was on and playing on the side of the Fortress, if it was just the two of us I knew when enemies came, I couldn't count on you. As a foe, I knew I likely didn't have to worry about you being there to defend.

The long and short of it is, WHEN you were around and WHEN you could be contacted, you were a boon to the Fortress. Sadly those times were few and far between, as your longevity will attest to. A good, strong character, but not enough of a presence. Something to take into consideration when you want to be in a cabal, is how much can you and will you be around to help out.

Good character all around though.

It doesn't bother me that you weren't online that much. Most of CFs population (especially vladamir) could use more of a real life. However a Maran should be around to fight more than you were, and not so much off in Silent Tower.

It was very nice to have you around when you were around.

>I knew Kelin with several characters, starting way back with
>Celebrimbor. As a Squire I took you aside once, and told you I
>was going to remove you for not being around enough, and you
>swore to change it. That was the last time I saw you with that
>character.

This is not correct. My life, I mean my real life dictates when I can play. I feel sorry for you if you disagree.

Second I did step up my time. And ironically I was defending you on and off all over from Fortress to Galadon from this Beast Scion fire giant axes/h2h (forgot his name) when you got pincered at Galadon Atlar and con-died.

Honestly from all leaders I served under I was least comfortable with Celebrimbor. Not because of any personal things between us but rather because of questionable orders you gave and tried to enforce.

>Then I knew Kelin with several other characters since, both
>Fortress and non Fortress. Even in the times when you were on,
>you were frequently far off somewhere where you couldn't hear
>the cabal channel, or recieve tells. If I was on and playing
>on the side of the Fortress, if it was just the two of us I
>knew when enemies came, I couldn't count on you. As a foe, I
>knew I likely didn't have to worry about you being there to
>defend.


Simply put I dont like sitting on my ass waiting for something to happen. Kelin was an explorer as well as a fighter.

When 7 scions/imperials come and cut through Maran/Watcher in less when a minute you just shrug your shoulders in disbelief.
(For imms: Maran Tara'bal hps should be seriously boosted. And Watcher offensive powers should be boosted as well.)

What could 2 or 3 marans do in such situation?
Quitting or waiting for some enemies to quit? Not my way.

By the way if you are willing to say something constructive, I am willing to listen. Overwise shut the %$&&*(*&^% up!

>This is not correct. My life, I mean my real life dictates
>when I can play. I feel sorry for you if you disagree.

This is correct. You may not agree with it, but it is correct. Thats how it happened, it's NOT up for debate. It's not about your real life or not real life. Just wanting to be in a cabal doesn't excuse you from the expectations your leader puts on you, no matter if you agree with them or not. You took up space at a time when we had damned few members, and weren't allowed to induct more. You're not entitled to a spot in a cabal, just because you want to be there. There's nothing uncommon about removing people from a cabal for poor attendance. Your attendance was (especially at that point) poor.

>Second I did step up my time. And ironically I was defending
>you on and off all over from Fortress to Galadon from this
>Beast Scion fire giant axes/h2h (forgot his name) when you got
>pincered at Galadon Atlar and con-died.

You need to remember that better. I was there because You were being attacked. It was 3 people, not one. And it also has nothing at all to do with the subject at hand. I could post the log, but it's just moot at this point anyway and really not germaine to the topic.

>Honestly from all leaders I served under I was least
>comfortable with Celebrimbor. Not because of any personal
>things between us but rather because of questionable orders
>you gave and tried to enforce.

Thats fine, but still has nothing to do with what I said. You seem to have totally overlooked the constructive aspect of what I wrote, namely that you needed to be around more, and decided to be offended by it. Whatever.

>
>Simply put I dont like sitting on my ass waiting for something
>to happen. Kelin was an explorer as well as a fighter.

Which is fine. but he was ALSO a member of a cabal, and had responsibilities to that cabal, that he frequently shrugged off.

>When 7 scions/imperials come and cut through Maran/Watcher in
>less when a minute you just shrug your shoulders in
>disbelief.
>(For imms: Maran Tara'bal hps should be seriously boosted. And
>Watcher offensive powers should be boosted as well.)

Again, none of this has a single thing to do with you being off in the Silent Tour for literally days on end. Nothing at all. Why do you even bring it up? When 7 Marans attack any cabal they slice through the guardians in less than a minute too. I agree about the Watcher, but your other points are just really out there and off topic.

>What could 2 or 3 marans do in such situation?
>Quitting or waiting for some enemies to quit? Not my way.

So you go and hide in the silent tower instead? is that your way? There are ample ways to defend with odds stacked against you. You saying this just really makes you look weak.

>By the way if you are willing to say something constructive, I
>am willing to listen. Overwise shut the %$&&*(*&^% up!

My entire post WAS constructive. Just because I didn't go all ass kissy and I said some things you may not want to hear doesn't make it not constructive. You've now had *2* cabal leaders from different periods of time tell you when you were on you were "absent" a lot. I'm clearly not alone in my opinion. If you can't take that as constructive, then nothing else I could say will make any difference anyway, so I'll just save my breath.

I thought the same thing at first but after seeing just how long he has been a maran. Ive seen him put in his dues agaisnt poor odds, for months he was the ONLY maran on, EVER.

If he wants to go out exploring and whatnot, thats fine...when he gets out he DOES hunt actively and doesnt back down.

While other maran "leaders" are dying left and right, Golron, Celebrimbor, Naraf, Heas, ect., ect....(A lot of newbie leaders of late)....Kelin usually keeps his sick set and doesnt run into death traps or make stupid mistakes. He is more deathfull in the long run. Like I said, it seems like he is cowardly at first, but if you notice, he fights on his terms and fights alot....then that argument is moot of him avoiding fights.

I think there is just alot of sour grapes from Maran ex's who have a history of getting owned and owned bad by Scion and Empire....

ENjoy your rest Kelin and thanks for all the fun fights.

>While other maran "leaders" are dying left and right, Golron, Celebrimbor, Naraf, Heas, ect., ect....(A lot of newbie leaders of late)....Kelin usually keeps his sick set and doesnt run into death traps or make stupid mistakes.

First of all your remark about me and those other leaders dying alot and implying it is because we are newbies is really silly.

The majority of my hundred + deaths were not because I made mistakes or screwed up. The way I played Golron was as an all or nothing type of guy. I have a few logs of me taunting the giant imperial groups after they have raided, and thus getting 1 - 2 rounded. I was not the type of char to back down from something like that. When all the other people were saying "No, its folley to even try" I would go and I would do my damnedest to get it done, granted it would get me killed, but to be honest, with dwarf con and leader con I really couldn't give a monkey's left nut.

You comment about Kelin keeping his set is true. Because from everything I saw he was never online much and thus had very limited chances to lose it. But when I started as Marshall we weren't able to induct because we had too many squires, and with Kelin almost never logging in he was taking up a spot that someone who is around alot more could have had.

>I think there is just alot of sour grapes from Maran ex's who have a history of getting owned and owned bad by Scion and Empire....

As I said, deaths really didn't matter to me. I was given extra con, leader con and had dwarf con and I still con died so you can imagine the amount of gear I got through. Gear really didn't mean much to Golron and so you implying I have sour grapes because of getting owned by empire and scion is really quiet funny.


No for my constructive comments. Kelin, when you were around I liked having you around, but you would log in way too infrequently for my likings. To an extent I agree with Vlad in that it doesn't matter if you feel you deserve a position, if your not there to actually fill it anywhere near as much as you should be then it really is just taking the spot from someone else. I can fully understand how your life can affect and limit your playing times as I have recently started working full time and am also waiting for Uni to start up again, but even so when I get into a cabal I do my damndest to be around as much as possible, and if I don't feel I am doing justice to anyone or being fair, then I step down or delete.

Don't take that as a shot at you, I don't mean for it to be agressive or sound angry. Luck with your next and whatever you make.

Blobqirt

>No for my constructive comments. Kelin, when you were around I
>liked having you around, but you would log in way too
>infrequently for my likings.


Not flaming you (more annoyed with the falacious concept I see), but this is, after all, a game. Not a job.

While you should be expected to do things IC to keep your RP straight and consistant as well as earn your cabal powers (no 5 minute or bad PK range log-outs, defend in raids, fight cabal enemies, listen to leaders) who are we to tell someone when they can and can not play and for how long?

This is a game, not a job.

If I don't feel like CFing today, why should I have to? Even as a leader, you don't have to show up daily like a job though if you can't be around often, you should resign the spot if favor of someone who has the time, but still be able to play.

I also don't get this arbitrary "too many spots" thing for some cabals now. Mayby the purpose is to fight cabal hopping, but it just seems to punish casual players and make more demands on and rewards based on time.

Mayby Kelin was just a solid PKer who had a life outside of CF. :)

>When you were around, you were a beast. However, you weren't
>around nearly as much as I would have liked.
>

At 11 o'clock PM, Day of the Bull, 15th of the Month of the Dragon
on the Theran calendar Kelin perished, never to return.Race: storm
Class: warrior
Level: 51
Alignment: Good
Ethos: Orderly
Cabal: FORTRESS, the Fortress of Light
Age: 604
**********************
Hours: 661
**********************

Now, as long as that 661 hours is not accrued in intervals of less than an hour each. I'm glad to have someone in my cabal that is as good an all round player as Kelin for that long a time.

I just don't get how you and Golron can complain about him not being around when he was around for 661 hours!

Now the entire issue of putting oneself in a situation where one is unable to hear the cabal guardian or other cabal members when a raid is occurring/impending is a sore spot with me. I got stuck defending alone when Kelin couldn't hear me more than once. If I'm a leader the first time someone misses a raid because they can't hear me talking to them, by their choice, they'd get a warning. The second time they'd find themselves inducted into None.

>Good character all around though.

I agree.

Mayeb he wasn't around enough during the moments when Vlad played, but 661 hours is nothing to sneeze at. The man age-died. Telling him he wasn't around enough is ridiculous.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Then tell me how many characters rolled around that same time are still kicking. Admittedly I'm not what you'd call a casual player, but plenty of people who are still put in ####loads more time than Kelin did. Also, the infrequent logins were only a small part of my beef. One or the other taken alone wouldn't really be grounds so much for a complaint (the being off and unavailable more than the other) but together, it shows a pattern of choosing both his logins and his availability when logged in, based on how difficult his opposition was.

There is an absolute definition of the most amount of time a char can put into the game.

That definition is age death.

Kelin fufilled that definition.

Sorry.

So the "age death" really doesn't mean much. It's all about looking at the whole picture, not just the total hours. Look at how long it took to put them in. If you can't see past the little "Age death" tag, thats cool, but it doesn't invalidate a word I've said.

To put things in perspective, Blitzenturt was rolled about the same time frame as Kelin. He died of old age (with MANY more hours) last october. He wasn't exactly on a lot towards the end there either, because he knew age death was coming. Even at his best he wasn't known for being on a whole lot. If Blitz age died so much sooner, and was created (around) the same time as Kelin, and he was certainly what I'd call a casual player, then it puts my point in perspective. Hopefully, even for you.

Your attitude is bad for cf. If we as a player base hold people to a standard of a minimum os lets say 20 hours a week, thats a ####ing second job, time wise.

Not only that, but it would take 33 weeks to play as much as Kelin did, playing 20 huors a week, and age die. 33 weeks. Thats a long time.

People allready complain about cf being too workish with out getting pissed at other players for not playing 20-30-40 hours a week.

I'm done posting about this, but I think maybe you need to find a new hobby if you consider 660 hours dedicated to ANYTHING not enough.

Thats 27.5 days dude. A ####ing MONTH of his life.

Think about it.

Being Emperor and age dying have nothing at all to do with being a casual player or not being a casual player.

>Your attitude is bad for cf. If we as a player base hold
>people to a standard of a minimum os lets say 20 hours a week,
>thats a ####ing second job, time wise.

I don't give a #### what people do with their log in times, if they don't want to join a cabal. Cabals require extra effort, and yes, extra time. It's not a free ride. You get powers and things as a reward for effort. I just don't see any effort from someone who cherry picks his login times, and when he IS on, is unavailable better than half the time.

>Not only that, but it would take 33 weeks to play as much as
>Kelin did, playing 20 huors a week, and age die. 33 weeks.
>Thats a long time.

Yes, 33 weeks IS a long time to have a character. You've just made my point for me.

>People allready complain about cf being too workish with out
>getting pissed at other players for not playing 20-30-40 hours
>a week.

Nobody would care, if he wasn't in a cabal. When you join a cabal, you ARE putting in for extra effort. if you can't handle it, then don't join a cabal, it's simple. Nobody is saying "All players must put in x number of hours" but if you are going to be a part of a cabal, then you ought to not only be on a fair bit, but be available to your cabal when you are on. Why are you too stupid to grasp the concept?

>I'm done posting about this, but I think maybe you need to
>find a new hobby if you consider 660 hours dedicated to
>ANYTHING not enough.

And still the point soars over your head. Sad.

>Thats 27.5 days dude. A ####ing MONTH of his life.
>
>Think about it.
>
And how many of those hours were spent off somewhere totally unreachable by anyone, safe as houses and not interacting with anyone? CF is a roleplaying game, and if you avoid other players for excessive amounts of time, how much roleplaying can you really be doing? How much do you deserve the powers that come with being in a cabal, when you constantly shirk the responsibilities that come with it? Joining a cabal isn't nor should it ever be, a free ride. If you don't agree with me thats cool, but you now have *3* cabal leaders Kelin dealt with all saying he wasn't available enough, as well as several of his other cabalmates, and yet you chose only to talk #### to me. Funny how that works. Multiple people agree on something, and yet I'm the only one who is wrong.

You're an idiot.

You're enforcing a definition of activity that the staff doesn't enforce, and the playerbase doesn't want. Just because you have an employment situation that allows you to play 80 hours a week doesn't mean everyone (caballed or not) does. Kelin played plenty.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

The staff does enforce this. I've seen people removed from Heralds of all things for not logging in enough. IE Folorad. Imperials are anathd after a certain amount of inactivity by the code, it's not even in a leaders hands. Scions also have been removed, or do I need to remind you of the Hratikit fiasco? Clearly the precedent is there that if you don't show up enough, you don't deserve your spot. How can you say this isn't enforced by the staff or desired by the playerbase, when it's already how things have been done?

However, it wasn't just the logins I took issue with, but if you look at his logins and then also look at what he did the times he was logged in and things weren't in his favor, it shows a pattern of avoiding the risk of losing his shiny set of eq, and THAT is the heart of my problem.

I've seen Kelin logged in for 6, 10, 12 hour stretches at a time sure. But I've seen him, more often than not, being somewhere completely unavailable for the entire time. Tell me, what in that says to you "This person deserves to have the powers of a full Maran"? When he's off in the silent tower, while his cabalmates are busy defending the Fortress for hours on end, where is the justification for his membership? You clearly don't play Fortress characters, because there were an awful lot of times where one more warrior could have made a huge difference, and one was actually on, but he was off hiding from the fighting by sitting in the silent tower. What in that says "Maran" to you? Really, tell me what in any of that says to you "This person has earned his cabal membership"?

Its blatantly obvious that Kelin did log in enough to retain cabal membership, in my opinion you need to give that argument up entirely.

I've no doubt the other issue would have been dealt with in game, _if_ FORTRESS had had leaders on more often in the recent past.

So, if nothing else, smile and go on down the road, the horse (Kelin) is dead now, no need to keep beating on him.

It's about the "There is no precedent for expecting longer logins from a person" thing, but I think I'll move that to gameplay.

Let us assume that Kelin was rolled in November 2003(not to bad assumption for extremely long-lived char who doesn't play all too often). We know that this was about 66 weeks ago, so Kelin would average 10 hours a week. If that is not enough for a caballed character, you are demanding too much.

However, if we assume that Kelin was rolled in January 1995(I wonder if CF was up already at that time, the records on officials do not reach that far), we get about the figure you said a bit more than an hour in week(1993 would be more accurrate in the one hour assuption, but I think CF isn't that old).

>**********************
>Hours: 661
>**********************
>
>Now, as long as that 661 hours is not accrued in intervals of
>less than an hour each. I'm glad to have someone in my cabal
>that is as good an all round player as Kelin for that long a
>time.

Do you realize how many MONTHS it took him to put in that time? And that time WAS put in, often with very brief log ins and outs. He's been on more as of late, but the more he was logged in, the more he was "unavailable" and useless to the cabal. He would drop link in the silent places, and stay there for days on end. He got to have all the powers, with damned few of the expectations of conduct. Yes, WHEN he was around and WHEN he was actually not hiding in a notell area, he was a good member of the Fortress. I'm saying it's a shame he wasn't there more often, because he would have been useful. I don't get why thats such a negative statement. It's saying "Hey man, you're good. You should have been here more". We're not saying "Kelin, you suck. Die" so don't take it that way.

>I just don't get how you and Golron can complain about him not
>being around when he was around for 661 hours!

Spread out over a VERY VERY long RL period of time. The only other character I can think of from that same general time was Hipsin, whom someone else complained about logging in for an hour a month.

>Now the entire issue of putting oneself in a situation where
>one is unable to hear the cabal guardian or other cabal
>members when a raid is occurring/impending is a sore spot with
>me. I got stuck defending alone when Kelin couldn't hear me
>more than once. If I'm a leader the first time someone misses
>a raid because they can't hear me talking to them, by their
>choice, they'd get a warning. The second time they'd find
>themselves inducted into None.

So which is it then? Because you basically said the same thing as me here, but you said you don't get how I could say what I said. Which one of us is smoking crack? What makes it constructive when you say "I got stuck defending alone because of Kelin more than once" but for me to say the same makes it flaming and thus bad?


>>Good character all around though.
>
>I agree.

As I said it was not the minimal logins that bothered me, it was the inability to defend.

I saw him around many times, and I do not consider Kelin one of those hard to find from Thera, folks. When I played Agantas I saw Kelin logged on often, so there he was on. After all, the man age died. He was around.

Personally, I see Cabals having max number of members as a bad thing, especially if that maximum is reached on regular basis and it leads to thinking "who deserves the cabal spot", even if both characters would be perfectly fit to be members of that Cabal. I dislike any put more hours into the game or be booted mentality. If it is demanded for you to play, more than you can willingly put or than the circumstances allow, the game becomes a burden, which leads to people quitting CF altogether, which is not something anyone wants to happen. It is a game and people play it for fun, not because they are expected to log in, or that's how I think it should be.

Good enemy, always tough, not afraid to mix it up. You walked the freaking walk so well that you didn't have to talk the talk.

I only really have to say one thing. I respected you, for your toughness, from all I saw roleplay, and the way you handled every situation, good or bad. Your marans are definately in a bit of trouble now.. muah ha ha. Hopefully you decide to come back to the dark side, heh

As for the dark side... We will see.

Fought you way back with Mangar, scion shifter (hyena/anaconda) cant even remember if thats for sure. We were only two opposing good/bads on a few times. I would take Orb from you and you would send a tell, do you really think you can hold that? Then youd whittle it down and reclaim after all my work.

Next played some fortress folk, Dralgarth, before that an elven bard, i cant even remember name, but traveled with you a bit. You helped that bard get things from Nightmare dragon...why cant I remember any of my chars?

ANyhow, well done.

fought you in a few reincarnations and I allways counted on having to flee or die, you were/are a beast, I'm not. Keep rolling beasts and show me/us how it's done.

Kelin was powerful, I felt somewhat useless beside you. 2 of us go to retrieve against a few Imperials and you were like 'grant me this and that' now 'stay hidden, I'll do the fighting'. When I stepped out to fight true enough I died, you were summoned up to the throne room, slept and all, yet survived them all with 85% hp..I was impressed. You were a beast. All in all, had fun interacting with you.

Oh well. Hylondin lied quite often about many things. She also realized that many people were too trusting. Asking you where you were...and you telling her. You were not the only person to do this. The only reason I believe we all came at you that time was because someone demanded your corpse....and noone could find you. I decided to just ask you...and you told me. Other then that, I believe I tried to give you the fight you were looking for...ie. one on one.

I enjoyed our battles. You were a beast...and I found it annoying you fricking kept trying to get me to waste my wands. I was seldom lacking them though.

I hated the fact you used offhand disarm so much too! ;-) I had to make sure to remove certain items when fighting you because I didn't want them disarmed then saced! You definately know how to use all the aspects of your characters.

I'll see you soon enough I suppose. I already have my other in the works.

I liked Kelin. You did some pretty cool things that I really respected. There's one thing in particular, but it'll have to wait until Tjok's gone. Although I do have some advice for your next character: stay away from cabals led by Vlad or Blobquirtz :P

That's it Thock. You brought it upon yourself. Its time for me to bring you in on this....

Tiok, you ummmm, errrr, hrmmmmmm. Damnit. I got nothing....

Bear in mind that everything I said was from my perspective. I know its a surprise, but I am not omnipotent. What I said is my opinion, from everything I saw.

Hell, I understand if people aren't able to play much due to other things getting in the way. When I played Golron I had a fair amount of free time to do whatever I wanted and so I played that many hours by choice. But from my own perspective I thought that he didn't log in enough, hardly enough. There are some points of Vlad's that I agree with, that cabals are not for everyone and that they do require more effort then not being caballed and that as a result you should need more frequent logins. But this is my opinion so it is not open to debate :P

Blobqirt

At the time Boobert and I were leading the Fort, Kelins logins were far far less frequent then they were towards the end. At the time I spoke to him, he said to me and I quote "If I'm not here again within ten elven days, I understand if you remove me". We're talking weeks at a time of inactivity. Sure, Kelin may have racked up over 600 hours in a years time, but it wasn't in 2 hours a day sections, it was weeks of inactivity, interspersed with marathon sessions. Towards the end he was on VERY frequently, but again, off where he couldn't be reached.

I rolled Celebrimbor in March of last year. According to Valg, Kelin rolled in January. Thats 3 months difference, and yet I was a hero while Kelin was still in the very low-mid ranks. People may look at 600 hours and say "Wow thats a lot of time" and it is, but until you look at the overall picture including things like how long between logins, and how long his sessions were, you don't really see my perspective. How many of us even have a character live for 3 months, let alone have one still in the low-mid ranks after 3 months?

But in the end, he came and played. So he wasn't "dead wood" to be tossed out. The char was played. That alone proves that not booting him was the right call, now that he is gone and we know better.

"I rolled Celebrimbor in March of last year. According to Valg, Kelin rolled in January. Thats 3 months difference, and yet I was a hero while Kelin was still in the very low-mid ranks."

Perhaps you power-ranked more effectively? It took Fungor 360 hours to hero, perhaps Kelin was slow to Hero as well?

>But in the end, he came and played. So he wasn't "dead wood"
>to be tossed out. The char was played. That alone proves that
>not booting him was the right call, now that he is gone and we
>know better.

No, even knowing what I know now, I still think he should have gotten the boot. You just have no idea what things were like then, and how few of us there were. He could have re-applied when he had more time, but for that time frame (and frequently after), he was just dead weight.

>"I rolled Celebrimbor in March of last year. According to
>Valg, Kelin rolled in January. Thats 3 months difference, and
>yet I was a hero while Kelin was still in the very low-mid
>ranks."
>
>Perhaps you power-ranked more effectively? It took Fungor 360
>hours to hero, perhaps Kelin was slow to Hero as well?

I never EVER power rank. It took me 314 hours to hit hero. A large part of it was his never being on, and coupled with that was an apathy that Golron also picked up on, hence his telling him he had advancement requirements to stay in the Fort.

The long and short of it is, you're still (as I have repeatedly said) just never going to understand the frustration with no-show cabal members that we had to deal with at the time. Whatever else Kelin may (or may not have) done with his character, he was unreliable in a whole slew of areas, and thats the one word I would best use to sum him up if I had to pick just one. Unreliable.

I'm not sure why you're so aggressively defending him, or why it's so vital to you that everyone be convinced Kelin was Uber-l33t-ultra-top-guy or whatever the #### award you are trying to win for him. The fact remains this is my opinion. In this instance my opinion is (as far as Kelin being unreliable) not unsupported by others who were in the Fort, both at that time and more recently. Seriously, you weren't there, you just don't know. Now climb down off of Kelins jock, and just agree to disagree on this.

You think Kelin was a swell guy who was on plenty and loved orphans and widows? Thats just super for you. Run with that and find your joy. But my opinion is just different, and no amount of "But maybe" or "Perhaps you" or "But he DID play....eventually" is going to change the fact that AT THE TIME, I would have been perfectly justified to remove him, and based on his lack of commitment to the cabal regret not doing so. Whatever he did since is irrelevant (and also not exactly anything to brag about) to how infrequently he was on then. Nothing you can say will change the fact that he's all but admitted on this very thread to hiding out in the silent tower when the odds weren't in his favor. Nothing you can say will change his explosive and assanine reaction to what started out as constructive criticism, and escalated into a huge thread for a character that frankly didn't deserve so much discussion.

The people who were there at the time know what I'm talking about. Everyone in the Fortress at one time or another was screwed over because Kelin just wasn't available to pull his own weight. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but thats just how it is. No amount of "But...but..." is going to change my mind about Kelin.

The horse is ####ing dead already, let the poor beast lie.

I'm not sure why you're so aggressively defending him, or why it's so vital to you that everyone be convinced Kelin was Uber-l33t-ultra-top-guy or whatever the #### award you are trying to win for him.

Conversely, I'm not sure why you feel the need to use your copious amounts of free time to write dozens of pages of condemnation on our forums, but it does need to stop.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Kelin is nothing more than an example case. I fight against the "he is inactive now, let's uninduct him"-policy, according which, even though in Kelin's case, the player came back and played. I do not comment whether he should have been uninducted if he neglegted his duties to Fortress at the times he was on.

You said that he should have been uninducted because he didn't play the game enough, which is an OOC reason. The reason which Imms presented for uninduction for not playing was basically because the char had become only something the player used to check the tidings of the cabal, and was probably playing another char already.

Therefore, not playing CF enough is not a reason to boot Kelin, as he came back and played the char, it was not there for tidings check only, which is why I do not understand why being inactive (this means not playing the game, not being elsewhere IC) would have justified the boot in this case.

And what I think of Kelin. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I don't remember interacting with Kelin. The whole issue was about booting him for inactivity, which is an OOC reason and the issue here has been how often Kelin's player played the game, not what the char did. I stand against booting for such OOC reason and I think that the person who makes the decision to boot for such a reason should have some tool to check when the char he played was in the game last time and how long a session he played(or other such Imm-tools).

I see such bootings as game mechanics issue, so the person who would do them should have a tool to monitor player activity. In other words, I think that mortal leaders are not competent to do this kind of booting of players this and Imms shouldn't expect this from them.

Damn, that's a ton of hours. I wonder if I'll ever have a character with that many. I thought Kelin was a strong fighter, but had a number of things skew my perspective concerning him. You struck me as a 'equipment set first, rp/dedication second' kind of character. Almost every time I saw Kelin, he was off with Androkin collecting things he needed, or already had eveything he needed but was ignoring the vast number of evils around and off exploring here or there.

I did manage to travel with you a couple of times, though one of them involved a large group acquiring a blade for Wungar, in which I was berated by Kelin for taking the sword I wanted, which I'd announced at the beginning of the trip had been my objective. At the time, I was looking at the words Kelin had spoken and literally thought out loud... "Is he going to cry if I keep this sword?" But I stuck to my guns, because some part of me really wanted to see what you would do about not getting your way. In response, we never spoke or interacted again, so I got my answer.

Advice I would offer would be to spend a lot less time worrying about your set and have fun in the fights that can really go either way on the drop of a dime. This game is no fun when it's a sure thing. Dying is to be expected, and while equipment can make a significant difference, so can being willing to have some fun.

Yes, I know I probably shouldn't continue the debate, but I'm just going to throw everything out there, for all to see. First, the good. Though most of what I saw was a lot of rage after that binding, I do think Kelin was well-enough played. Never saw any breaks in RP, etc. I always found it amusing, how you and I had such a vicious hatred, based off something that happened maybe six months ago. Calheil always would have been ready to let it drop, but he never would have been the one to back down from it. As the character, I learned cabals pull a lot of leverage in pissing off one pisses off all, which I tried hard to work against. Still, talk about one stubborn giant...I even managed to get a dwarf (Golron) to admit maybe they had better things to do than keep pissing off a neutral thief who'd be willing to help them, if they weren't always trying to kill him.

As for the bad, and it's not really bad, just timing and all...I tend to agree that Kelin probably deserved booting. Not because he couldn't cut it, but looking at the circumstances. If nothing else, the sheer fact that two cabals leaders said they wanted to boot him. The Imms gave them run over the cabal, I don't really see where it's really anyone (even Valg's) place to severely question a decision to remove a member, especially when two of them agree like that. Shokai or Vynny question it? Yeah. Not so much otherwise. Particularly when a cabal is full. It does hurt the cabal, and players wanting to play the cabal. I specifically remember times as Calheil, I thought Kelin died off, or had autodeleted, then being shocked to see him again. Again, not that this is so horribly a BAD thing. People can play uncaballed as well as caballed, and I expect Kelin should have had a good shot to get back in, say near the end when he was playing *more* frequently.

Anyways, all in all I'd have to sum you up as an adept warrior, but yes, not really one to take serious chances. Which is something that I, personally, think hinders a character. Without risk-taking, there's no challenge, no conflict, and you lose out on one of the best ways to make your character memorable. Facing adversity. Anyways, luck with the next one, I have unfortunately finally succumbed to the calling again. ....oh yeah, the ugly? Definately you. It sure wasn't Calheil. Mwahaha!

- Straklaw the Insightful Bandit King...er, no, that's not right...bah, nevermind. It's me, whoever I am.