Sat Apr 14 11:28:01 2018

At 10 o'clock AM, Day of the Moon, 7th of the Month of the Frost Giant
on the Theran calendar Allaluvial perished, never to return.

Race:	human
Class:	shapeshifter
Level:	51
Alignment:	Good
Ethos:	Chaotic
Cabal:	None, None
Age:	24
Hours:	42

Was really hoping you would bounce back from that goodie kill.

Oh well!

Redemption stuff isn't for everyone.

I can see a goodie invoker, bard, conjurer or Battle berserker accidentally racking up a goodie kill due to bad luck or an acceptable #### up.

If you're a good aligned shifter and you kill a good align, you're just being sloppy and ignoring the basic drawbacks of good alignment.

1) Fortress good align is held to a different standard as non-Fortress good align. It's against the principles of the cabal. Battle? Doesn't care so much about you killing other goodies, but your align in general is still at risk.

2) Bad luck? Sure. "Acceptable ####-up?" The whole idea of this is as a good align, particularly in Fortress, you shouldn't accept "acceptable" screw-up.

Goodie invoker blows up a city block to kill Istendil.

Looks around at the three random citizens nearby.

"My. That's unfortunate. Those guys shoulda gone elsewhere."

...

Uh...no. The invoker should be having severe issues with the fact that he's now just as murderous as whatever bad-dude he's fought.

Obviously it's not my playground, but I think that's the biggest issue going on. We've gotten too used to treating NPCs as objects in the game, and this has been a bit of a shift moving away from that. Amusingly, a number of years ago my last Fortress dude got promoted from Scribe to Acolyte *because* I was running for my life from some evil dude, passed the plague along to an NPC, and ran back to heal the NPC.

Also that character had con-died, killed by a goodie mob.

When are we going to start enforcing PC-NPC equality?

I want to kill neutral PCs for gear and keep my good alignment. Because we do this to NPCs, right?

Also village parity should include NPCs. Let's gang the conjurer! And the massive giant is a person too, he should be counted for parity purposes. So no interfering with solo retrievals.

But wait there's more! How many of you asked Sharasen give you his legendary dagger, even though he's lying wounded and lost and about to die? How would you feel if you were in that position and another goodie asked for your gear?

While we're at it, remember not all people in Thera are even represented as NPCs. If there is no mob at Market Square at noon, it is still a bustling market square because that's what the description says! Cast a fireball and people die. (The no area spells law suddenly gains meaning.)

EDIT: Best idea!
>discuss guildmaster barrier
The guildmaster tells you: Destroy Istendil and you will find your black rod.

>But wait there's more! How many of you asked Sharasen give you
>his legendary dagger, even though he's lying wounded and lost
>and about to die? How would you feel if you were in that
>position and another goodie asked for your gear?

I'd feel fine about it. I mean, I'm not going anywhere or using the dagger, right?

Also, I always use the "comfort" social when I visit him. After I've requested I use the "thank" social. So I'm pretty sure he's in a better mood after I visit him than before. Pooling lifeblood notwithstanding, of course.

To add:

I personally wouldn't mind it if staff were more proactive about punishing good-aligned PCs who kill neutral sentient NPCs with no mitigating context.

For instance, the elemental bishops are technically neutral, but it's not difficult to justify killing them since they're leading an evil cult. Much harder to justify killing wood-elf guards in Evermoon, Tarus, etc.

It may boil down to mechanics, since it's technically difficult to monitor for "bad" neutral kills. If a staff member sees a good-aligned PC with 100 neutral kills, I doubt it's possible to know whether they were "bad" or "okay". So enforcement would probably only happen when someone is being snooped, meaning it would be spotty at best and players would be unhappy when some characters are punished but not others.

NPCs are treated like objects because they are objects and they behave like objects. If you want NPCs to be treated like real people, they should behave like real people.

Since that isn't particularly feasible, accept that the mechanics of the game sometimes mean the RP doesn't make sense, and move on.

But not necessarily both.

With my comeback char (who had an awful build imho -- I should have listened to the advice I was given!) I accidentally killed a good align mob that I thought was neutral. Only when I got -30exp did I realise my mistake.

Sloppy, yes. Ignoring align, no. I sacced the gear I was after, have my good away to some random mob in the nearby city (his family) and went and told my cabal leader, fully expecting to be booted. So align adherence was there but sloppiness was too.

Have my good away was meant to read gave my gold away.

Letting leaders know, who hopefully will address it with immortals, and also going directly to immortals with praying about accidental goodie kills is the best route to take. Makes a record of it, opens a discussion, and then roleplay can happen.

That goodie kill happened while ranking due to an invoker that I still don’t understand how he hasn’t been reprimanded yet. I’ve received tells from him verbatim saying “plz no” and “:)” and he did an area spell in Arial City and killed a goodie before I could flee. He has literally no RP and treats CF like a chatroom.

I RP’d it out with the other goodie in our group and we went on our way. Not a word was said about it and that’s the only goodie kill I ever had.

You never said a word about it in our first interaction or even hinted something might be wrong.

So if you’re going to punish veterans because a new player made a mechanical mistake then I don’t really feel like being a part of CF anymore to be honest.

If this is when I think it was, that is really bad luck it fell on you. Don't let it spoil the overall fun, CF always has its ups and downs. I'm sorry to hear about this.

Sure, it sucks when a groupmate frags a goodie mob, because if you're also a goodie - you have to answer for it too.

The mechanical mistake you're talking about is one that can easily be roleplayed through IF you make an effort to bring it up either in conversation, PRAY(no prays for the record), or even a note.

It happened, you moved on, but never answered for it. Talking it through with other morts is good, but as any veteran goodie killer can tell you, your best bet to REALLY make it go away is with immortal interaction. Tons of current Fortress members had their mistakes too, so don't think you're alone in this, and they got through it and a few even became leaders.

So, what did I do after you didn't bring it up: Removed your pledge to the fortress so mortals couldn't induct you. That way, I could induct you myself once you made any type of progress beyond it. It was one mob, I'm very sympathetic to the one time offenders.

42 hours on a hero shifter is not a lot, so I figured you just wanted to delete and start over.

For reference, if your character kills a goodie or is involved in a goodie kill and you don't bring it up in prays or notes it's only going to get worse the longer you stay quiet about it. It will halt all other progress in religion, cabal, or other goodie aligned things.

Why wouldn’t you even RP with me about removing my pledge? I didn’t even know that happened. That’s weak as hell. Especially when our only interaction was purely positive without even a hint of you being upset.

And I’d sure hope you’d be sympathetic about it considering my character was tarnished by a goodie invoker that’s sending smiley faces in tells.

For it being my only mistake when it wasn’t even mines but someone else’s, silent treating me and punishing me without a word as an IMM just doesn’t make sense.

If not, there's your problem.

If you didn't, then don't look to others for the problem.

If you'd rp'd it you would probably have found out about the pledge removal, because the response to your to would explain some stuff.

If you did rp it then I can see why your are disgruntled. Just get the impression you didn't.